jwiggler @ jwiggler @sh.itjust.works

Posts

11

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302

Joined

2 yr. ago

I mean, I hate white nationalism just as much as the next guy. But if you go around making it illegal to be anonymous or part of a particular group, whether they're considered terrorist or otherwise, that's bad. It gives the next party in power precedent to make being part of your group illegal. That's why freedom of speech is so important.

I think associating with a group that believes in the creation of an ethnostate should remain legal so that associating with a group that believes in the dismantling of capitalism remains legal.

Its just a lack of consistency, I don't know what to tell you. You can't tell me the US sends military aid to Ukraine in order to "defend democracy," when in numerous other cases of sovereign countries being occupied, we do nothing, or we even support the occupiers, in Palestine's case.

This lack of consistency lends itself to the idea that there are further interests besides "defending democracy" for which we send Ukraine weapons. I'm not sure how else to put it. If it were about the moral imperative of defending occupied people's, you can pick out numerous similar examples where we have not acted, and you just have to conclude that there are other factors behind the US sending aid to Ukraine. One is the perceived threat the country feels from Russia, which I think is probably exacerbated by the press. One is the perpetuation of the constant war economy we have, and one is the increased political unity that war brings.

But I'm curious about your position, you're dismissing my arguments as "whataboutism," but what exactly would you assert instead? Do you think that Ukraine deserves our aid more than Palestine does? Is it that Russia is a grave threat to the United States? I'm genuinely curious

I don't think they should be condemned to genocide, but I don't think we should be sending them weapons. I think Biden should be talking to Putin in some capacity, which he is not. Radio silence. I think that exacerbates the war.

I don't think this weird moral imperative is real, like we're America so we ought to do something. I don't think that it's real because, just like in Russia, where you've got an active conflict and you've got some Russian propaganda calling for the denazification (what you've correctly referred to as genocidal) you also have, in Israel, active conflict of genocidal nature between Israel against Palestinians, but we do nothing.

So you're saying, we, America should condemn Palestine to genocide? Or how about the Uhygur peoples? Should we engage in a proxy war with China? Certainly, according to your claims that otherwise we are dooming them to genocide by their occupying country.

That moral imperative you're talking about is fabricated, because if the US government actually cared about these people -- Ukrainians, Palestinians, or Uhygur -- we'd be sending military aid to all of them, or else we'd be "condemning them to genocide," as you say.

This aid is not going to Ukraine to help them endure genocidal forces. It's going there to perpetuate our constant war economy that is reliant on conflict. It's going there to unite the political party against an outside evil and to further the US geopolitical and global free-market goals.

I never claimed the revolt itself was a result of their actions, I claimed that we were actively involved in installing their new government, which we were.

Well, I actually didn't say any of that, but thanks for stripping any nuance from what I said, creating a strawman, and then attacking that, instead.

Thank you for the insults, I guess the point of my effort dump is moreso that I dont think it's really as black and white as people make it, I think it deserves some nuance. Which is a little ironic because you summed the whole thing up in six words! Haha

But no, I don't think it's very unreasonable to be against a war. You do? I do not support Russia. But I don't think the US should be sending military aid to Ukraine.

Edit: or, I mean against this war

Dude we were denying their agency in 2014 when we were helping install their new pro-EU government

The fact that you're assuming this person is a Fox "News" consumer is emblematic of the overall media's coverage of the war in Ukraine. A person can be anti-war and still part of the left. But not according to you, or others who immediately jump to things like, "go back to licking Putins boot, watching Fox News, etc." You are shutting down any sort of constructive conversation.

The media has made the war in Ukraine a moral imperative by making it democratic Ukraine vs authoritarian Russia. War makes everything black and white. So it becomes impossible to say something like, "Russia's invasion of Ukraine is wrong" while also saying "The US should not support Ukraine with weapons."

I am anti-war. I do not think the US should support Ukraine with weapons. To me, I am extremely skeptical of the simplistic idea that we are aiding democracy and staunching authoritarianism. I think that kind of of rhetoric pervaded the conflicts in the Middle East, and I think in those cases, it was more accepted by the public that the US was acting in a more imperialistic manner. I think that fits closer to the mark here, too.

For one thing, the US was directly involved in Ukraine's revolution in 2014, trying to position people in power who had a more EU friendly demeanor. And they helped expand NATO bases closer to Russian borders. These two things, while they certainly do not justify Russia's invasion, I'm sure made them feel threatened. Now, I don't have much historical knowledge of Ukraine or Russia, but certainly they've had more than just a geographic relationship over the past century or so. If Russia was involved in a Mexican revolution, trying to make them friendlier to Russia rather than the US, I'm sure the US would have a problem with that. Still, the US would not be justified in invading Mexico, as Russia is not justified in invading the Ukraine. This is just to point out the same type of meddling that the US does all across the globe in the name of "democracy" or "free market capitalism", we were doing here, too.

I think it's doubtful that this is all purely in the name of democracy. After all, look at what is happening to Palestine. They are a country occupied by the authoritarian state of Israel, and we do nothing. So, to me, there are other factors at play in Ukraine. One, I think, is that war is profitable. "Defense" companies like Raytheon and BAE actually have an interest in perpetuating war, as it brings in profits. So big firms are going to support giant aid packages, as it means they're going to get business.

Another, I think, is that war is politically profitable. When you can get your party to demonize an individual or country and unite around the noble war effort, it's just another issue you've manufactured to get their vote.

Anyways. I just don't buy that this war is about democracy or any higher moral value. I think it's about money, to be honest, and politics. Mostly money. It's a proxy war between the US and Russia and I think the media has pushed the narrative that it is a morally imperative war between Ukraine and Russia because it is financially interested in perpetuating the conflict. I don't think the US has an interest in actually ending the war.

And overall, I just think war is one of the greatest evils, and I will almost never support it. Real people are dying for fucking what? If that makes me a Fox News watcher, or conservative, or Putin lover, or whatever name you want to sling my way, I guess so be it. It's dumb, but so be it.

Edit: if you're downvoting me without a rebuttal, you're part of the problem that I'm referring to -- a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I've said, please comment why because I'd like to hear your viewpoint so that I can adjust mine appropriately. I'm not interested in name-calling, but an actual conversation about this topic would be cool.

*Except if that country is Palestine. They can get ploughed

Sure, but who isn't "against" China in the West? They commit atrocities left and right.

But I think it'd be more difficult to find many who'd support military conflict with China, proxy or otherwise.

Edit: honestly, scratch that. I think it would be pretty easy to get popular support for a conflict with China, in the same way it was easy to get popular and unwavering support for a conflict with Russia

I'm not sure what you're trying to say I'm delusional about, or what you're trying to claim is propaganda, but nice lil throw-in there. Good to see you're not actually trying to have a conversation.

It seems you've entirely missed the point though. Of course Russia would rather Ukraine as their subject, and that they would rather they have a russia-friendly government (after all, a third of Ukraine speaks Russian).

There is no justification for Russia invading Ukraine.

But the US has actually done nothing to try to end this war, and has done much to provoke it, and I think that's because we have a perpetual war economy. You said it yourself, it's a good deal to weaken our rivals -- we don't actually need American troops on the ground, but we can still fight the evil Russians, hoo-rah! Fuck them communists! Talk about hawkish propaganda.

Edit: oh, and by the way, if you really want to argue that US should be in this proxy war because Russia is a big US "rival": Russia's GDP is _{2 trillion [dollars](https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp) compared to the US [26 trillion](https://www.statista.com/statistics/216985/forecast-of-us-gross-domestic-product/#:}:text=According%20to%20the%20CBO%2C%20the,inflation%20rate%20for%20the%20country. ), so not exactly economic rivals, and comparing NATO vs Russia military prowess isnt much of a fairer balance. So how do you mean that Russia is a US rival? Historically, sure, but we shouldn't go invading everyone considered a historical "rival," should we?

We sent 76 billion dollars worth of aid to Ukraine in a year and a half. That is four times their own defense budget for 2023. We're funding their defense. It's a proxy war between US and Russia. I mean, we've already been intervening -- in 2014 we were trying to influence the outcome of their government during their revolution, you can read some analysis here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957.amp

Edit: if you flipped it on it's head, this war is like if Mexico had a revolution that overthrew their corrupt government, and while the protests were happening Russia was supporting key members of the ones overthrowing the government. US feels threatened that our neighbor is strengthening ties with our enemy, and so we invade Mexico. It's obviously not right for the US to invade sovereign Mexico. It's obviously not right that Russia is fucking around in Mexico's revolution. But in this case, Russia doesn't care if Mexico beats back the invading US, they just want to keep supplying them with weapons to prop up Russia's own domestic "defense" industry, prop up the economy, claim moral necessity, unite the party against a common enemy, bobs your uncle, you're elected again

I mean, there's really only one whataboutism in my comment (what about Palestine and Israel), but sure, you can say there are four in there.

And honestly I think it's a fair point. The US is not purely interested in defending nation states from authoritarian occupation, because if we were, we'd not support the state of Israel in their oppression of Palestinians. So there must be other factors behind our support for Ukraine, some might be legitimate (protecting Ukrainian exports to keep global economy stable) and others not so much (protecting profits for private arms companies). And I think it's more likely the latter, considering the size of our "defense" budget.

What do you have to say to that? I'm interested in your take, not in you just accusing me of whataboutism.

Don't forget that it's politically advantageous to have a big bad enemy country to unite your party. For Democrats, it's Russia. For Republicans, it's China.

Obviously both Russia and China are authoritarian as all fuck, but Israel is an authoritarian occupier as well, and we're perfectly fine with them.

This dude is totally content with 300,000 years of subjugation of women by men, but has problems when a single feminist movie comes out. Comedy can only make fun of the other, apparently. Soon as you (men) get made fun of, they're all up in arms.

Get with the program or get out of the fucking way.

It's really not pants on head. The Western propaganda machine immediately crucifies anyone saying anything bad about Ukraine. War crimes in Donbas? "You're trying to undermine the Ukraine cause!" The US helped engineer a regime change in Ukraine in 2014 that resulted in civil war? "But they're democratic now!" (By the way, see the parallels to Iraq there?) NATO, which was once thought defunct after the fall of the Soviet Union, building bases on Russian border? "Well, they're authoritarian and need to be contained!"

Well, Russia felt threatened and took the bait and invaded Ukraine (not justified, by the way. Still wrong.) And now, how many billions of dollars are going to the Ukraine war effort from the US? And you cant say a bad thing about Ukraine without being vilified as a Putinist.

I mean, someone the other day told me "the only anti-war stance is to send more weapons to Ukraine so they can end this war faster." What? That's like saying "the only way to end the conflict in Vietnam is to send the southern Vietnamese more troops so they can destroy the northern communists faster." Nah, an anti-war position is leaving Ukraine to defend themselves.

For the US, this is not aiding a democratic country against an authoritarian regime. If this were really about democracy vs authoritarianism, we'd be sending weapons to Palestine against the authoritarian state of Israel. But since Israel is a useful tool under our thumb, that's not going to happen. This is a proxy war that we wanted so that the people can have an easy person to hate (just like in the middle east), justified in the name of "democracy" (pro-western government US helped install, also like Middle East), and furthered by billions and billions of dollars worth of weapons and aid packages, paid to defense firms like BAE and Raytheon.

I don't think ukraine can win this war and take back all their territory, including Crimea. And that's good for the US, because war is profitable and having an adversarial country like Russia (for Republicans, it's China) is politically advantageous.

Edit: BTW, this is not all to say that the OP is true. I've not been able to verify the veracity of the disappearance of this journalist, the most reputable source being https://twitter.com/MarkSleboda1/status/1686619514211868672?s=20 who reports from a Russia PoV. I think it's important to maintain that Russian PoV =/= Russian propaganda, but still important to be skeptical.

I'm pretty sure the dude who had nuclear information in his bathroom was and is more insecure.

Not sure why we talk about any other type of insecurity.

I've been using Ubuntu for the past 6 years, haven't tried another distro because I'm so comfortable here. Could you tell me why you think others are so much better?

Maybe I should switch, but I think my experience in Ubuntu might outweigh the negatives that it has ie I might just know how to deal with it's peculiarities and I don't even realize

Mainstream media is generally propaganda, too, even lots of "left leaning" media.

For example, we don't hear about the war crimes committed by Ukraine, only ones by Russia.

We don't hear about how the US was actively working with right-wing groups in Ukraine to overthrow the government in 2014, efforts that helped further fracture relationship between Ukraine and Russia.

Or the military posturing by NATO in a geographically adjacent country to Russia.

War makes us forget nuance and accept simple absolute truths like Russia attacked Ukraine and therefore Ukraine must defend itself.

And for the record: fuck Russia for this ongoing conflict. They are the perpetrators, for sure. But all historical context to this conflict is completely thrown out in the eyes of the mainstream media.

Where are the anti-war democrats? Where are the people looking to end the war, rather than further fuel it with weapons? Nowhere to be found.

You know why? Because war makes too much money. Americans are paying to subsidize the cost of weapons to keep the war going. We the people are funding this.

We say "what are we supposed to do? Just let Russia invade Ukraine?" And then turn a blind eye to Palestinians occupied by Israel.

Bleh. It's so good. I hate it, but it's amazing.