You seem to be very befuddled. Do you not understand what a hypothetical situation is for, or how it works? Of course I made it up.
Society often makes decisions for people who cannot be counted on to make their own. Like, child labor laws.
Remember: My stance is that whether or not pregnant people should have a choice to have an abortion is a matter of debate, not an objective fact. I am already pro-choice.
I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm pointing out that this is not an objective truth-- that whether or not pregnant people should have (safe) access to abortions is up to society, and thus it is best for those of us who believe that society is better off when there is safe access to abortion (which the data supports!) should make an effort to convince those people that disagree.
This topic has a lot of parallels to the debate on capital punishment. Much of the support for capital punishment is based on incorrect assumptions, bad information, and feelings. Luckily, people seem easier to sway away from capital punishment, but it would be infinitely more difficult if the arguments for capital punishment were just laughed at or ignored.
Does this apply to vaccines? There are many (many) people in this thread that tell me that no one has to get vaccinated, they can just live in the woods on a mountain-- but I can't help but wonder who enforces this, if not the government. (I do think people should be required to get vaccinated, btw-- but I also think "my body, my choice" is a weak argument.)
I mean, the same thing that is happening right now, right? The point would be that websites would not be built to only allow trusted clients-- it would still have to allow all clients. If they wanted to remove this 10% thing, it's not like the entire web would instantly stop being built to allow untrusted clients.
Right, but these are all judgments made by society. It's not objectively true.
For what it's worth, the most effective argument I've used to convince anti-choice people that they should support the choice to have an abortion is by crafting a hypothetical there they are forced by the government to undergo a liver transplant (which only takes half the liver, which will eventually grow back) to "save a life", and then comparing it to forcing a pregnant person being forced to carry to term to "save a life".
If the zygote wants to speak up against it then it should be listened to.
This is an absolutely terrifying stance to take. It implies that one's ability to object is a requirement before the law or society should consider protections. Yikes
so can you elaborate
No. I already explained it was just a hypothetical to point out the lack of logical soundness for the "my body, my choice" rebuttal. I see no reason to continue to flesh out a high level hypothetical.
Notably, this is my exact conclusion-- but my point isn't that a pregnant person should not be allowed to have a choice-- only that the argument could be logically made that the rights of the zygote are more important. A parent has to feed and care for their kids, even if they want to abandon them to go spend a week in vegas. We make judgement on whose rights matter more all the time, and abortion/choice is no different.
My point was that it doesn't help anyone to dismiss that there is a judgement to be made. You and I have both obviously made judgments that the pregnant person's right to bodily autonomy is of greater importance, but that doesn't mean that this is objectively true, or that the zygote doesn't have rights or should be considered a person for legal purposes.
I have a weak grasp of this, but a developer working on this responded to some criticism.
If the developers working to implement this are to be believed, they are intentionally setting it up so that websites would have an incentive to still allow untrusted (for lack of a better term) clients to access their sites. They do this by intentionally ignoring any trust check request 5% - 10% of the time, to behave as if the client is untrusted, even when it is. This means that if a website decides to only allow trusted clients, they will also be refusing trusted clients 5% - 10% of the time.
The relevant part of the response is quoted here:
WEI prevents ecosystem lock-in through hold-backs
We had proposed a hold-back to prevent lock-in at the platform level. Essentially, some percentage of the time, say 5% or 10%, the WEI attestation would intentionally be omitted, and would look the same as if the user opted-out of WEI or the device is not supported.
This is designed to prevent WEI from becoming “DRM for the web”. Any sites that attempted to restrict browser access based on WEI signals alone would have also restricted access to a significant enough proportion of attestable devices to disincentivize this behavior.
Additionally, and this could be clarified in the explainer more, WEI is an opportunity for developers to use hardware-backed attestation as alternatives to captchas and other privacy-invasive integrity checks.
"My body, my choice" is not a sound stance supporting abortion because
it doesn't only involve the pregnant person's body; the entire conflict is because there is a zygote in the situation, as well
it sets up a defense against requiring vaccinations as a mandate to interact with society. Unless you mean to say that it's okay if a woman is given the ""choice"" if abortion while also giving them an excessive consequence for making that choice
I am not, nor have I ever, been arguing against choice. Perhaps I confused you with some unclear wording somewhere. I'm arguing that "it's just a clump of cells" doesn't necessarily mean society, or the law, shouldn't care what happens to it.
I don't know if land mines are part of it, but there are munitions that are considered a war crime to be used because the are likely to harm someone in some unspecified future.
I am not arguing against choice at all; I'm arguing that "it's just a clump of cells" is not a rational argument for whether or not it deserves protection under the law.
It might depend on what you mean by forced, but I meant it more as a hypothetical. the "my body, my choice" argument doesn't logically differentiate between the two things. Which is why it's ineffective at convincing people to support choice.
What is or is not considered murder is irrelevant.. murder is a legal construct fabricated entirely by humans. Killing another human isn't always illegal, but that only shows that there is a discussion to be had about what killing of humans is allowed and what isn't.
Did I not make it clear enough that I am pro-choice and an atheist? Why are so many people acting like I'm anti-choice and religious? I specifically made an argument that supports freedom of bodily autonomy and called out any religious justification for removing choice as irrelevant.
I really appreciate the effort you took to respond. You'll shortly read that I disagree, but I appreciate it just the same.
scientifically speaking, it’s 100% accurate.
Scientifically speaking, we're all just clumps of cells, are we not? The argument is not sound.
There are no real punishments for any of those actions
I don't see how this matters. You do agree that we should concern ourselves with the well being of the people that haven't been born yet, right? We should not perform actions today that can harm people in the future? If yes, then whether or not someone has been born is irrelevant to whether or not they deserve protection as a person under the law, or even morally speaking, if you care for moral arguments.
yeah… not really. If I’m forced to carry the parasite,
It's not a parasite anymore than when anti-choicers call it a baby. It's a... growth, but aren't we all? haha This isn't Hogwarts. You're not going to convince anyone that you are correct by using a magic phrase like "baby" or "parasite" or "clump of cells". And my point is that this is something you need to convince people of. So you should want to take actions are effective at that goal.
they cannot live outside of my body, so please take them out, and let them do their thing
This has always been an interesting thought experiment for me. Imagining a future time where a zygote could be removed from a pregnant person's body without killing the zygote, the abortion debate would cease to exist-- because there is no longer a conflict between two people's rights.
the government and especially religion should have zero say. Abortion is a medical procedure, whether you, imaginary sky daddy, or some religious zealot thinks otherwise, and should be treated as such.
Well, I agree with this. That's my conclusion as well. That's not a power the government should have over people.
those laws are simply and excuse to kill for the sake of killing, and because the person already WANTED to
Thus my point: even in the realm of "it's okay to end someone's life if you're acting in self defense" is not an objective stance. You've rightly added in context and nuance. Why should abortion be different? Why shouldn't abortion also be a debate, as opposed to claiming it's an objective truth?
Except scientifically, and objectively, there is a right answer. Certain people just don’t like it, but it doesn’t change the reality of it. That’s like saying I don’t like religion so no one can practice it. Doesn’t work, does it?
We've already established that your "scientifically" aspect is flawed, but keep in mind that we are discussing a human social construct (the law). We have granted abstract objects (corporations) some rights of personhood-- there is nothing to say we couldn't provide rights to a "clump of cells". The question then becomes if we should, which just brings up back to the original problem. In fact, I'd say that it makes things worse to argue from this point. If you say that a "clump of cells" is not a person, then what happens if someone assaults a pregnant person which results in loss of the pregnancy? If you've decided that there are no rights, then I feel like the law becomes less just for edge cases. Whereas if you instead concede that there are rights, but when they come in conflict with the rights of the pregnant person, the "clump of cells" rights are the ones that become restricted and the law still makes sense otherwise.
Also, at this point, I do not believe there are any “undecided” people left.
This is provably untrue. Just because someone has made a decision doesn't mean they can't be convinced otherwise. After Roe was struck down, polling in favor of maintaining abortion rights went up. Polling wouldn't change if no one could be swayed.
Again, I really appreciate the thought and effort you put into your reply. And do keep in mind that you and I are both pro-choice (and apparently atheist). My point is directly mostly towards how best to argue our case to people who disagree.
Edit: I don't know what happened but a significant part of my comment seems... missing.
If hypothetically speaking I bury a land mine in a field-- does it matter if the person who eventually dies because of my actions was born before or after I buried the mine? Is when they were born in relation to my actions relevant at all?
You seem to be very befuddled. Do you not understand what a hypothetical situation is for, or how it works? Of course I made it up.
Society often makes decisions for people who cannot be counted on to make their own. Like, child labor laws.
Remember: My stance is that whether or not pregnant people should have a choice to have an abortion is a matter of debate, not an objective fact. I am already pro-choice.