jeremyparker @ jeremyparker @programming.dev

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2 yr. ago

I keep trying to find a way to play with a web dev stack that doesn't involve JavaScript, but I think that might be a pipe dream...

but for anything beyond a very simple UI, you always end up with something that needs to be called in JS.

Isn't that why god made HTMX? Jokingly asked, but legitimate question - I don't know much about WASM's reach - and I can't seem to watch that video on the train. Could HTMX (+/- hyperscript) take it from there?

This for sure. At work (fe dev), I need to get things done quickly and reliably, so I use Svelte. At home, I'm just playing around, so I'll try things that are out of my wheelhouse or strange, eg rn I'm rebuilding the site I always rebuild in Qwik, Go, and Surrealdb - why? Because they seem neat. (Though I might just rm rf that to build something on Bun, because is there anything is can't do?)

Pretty sure they're going to be handling the zombo.com nft sales

And Rich Harris (Svelte) said, it's an issue for people in his position, aka, people making tools for developers - he fully expects and respects that the end users (developers using those tools) don't really experience the downsides.

That said, I feel like we're seeing a lot of versions of complaints about how big the stacks are getting, how big the foundation is that we "need" just to get started. That desire for minimalism is core to the developer mentality imo, it makes us good at our jobs. I think we're going to see more paring down and culling in the coming months/years.

First off, I'm going to stop writing out "computer generated imagery" and start saying CGI, please understand I mean this kind of AI art we're taking about, not avengers movies special effects.i know it's already a taken acronym but I hate calling it AI, so, until we come up with something better...

Some go through great lengths to try to take down their works from image boards, others simply accept it as being a reality of the internet.

A big part of what I'm saying is that the CGI issue is just this, but weirder. And I'm not saying it's not weird - it definitely is - but this particular concern, to me, seems disingenuous because of the above quote. All CGI does is change some of the venues people in group A scour.

Regarding credit - this is kind of sticky. There are two (well, more than 2, but 2 relevant here) parts of IP law: copyright and license.

Copyright is a default, you-don't-have-to-do-anything protection against people profiting off of your work. I right click/save your photo, I put it on my site and sell copies for $50. This is legally actionable. It's not criminal - but it's actionable. Profit is a requirement here; if I share your work with my friend - or even post it on my non-monetized website - there's not really anything you can do. I can even tell everyone it's mine - copyright law does not care. You would have to be able to prove that I'm profiting somehow or else I'll be able to use a fair use defense. (And it will be a legitimate use of fair use.)

License law governs our ability to allow people to use our work. Legally, we're allowed to write contracts and have others sign them which outline parameters of permission. These are legally actionable - but only if the other party signs. Most of what we see in terms of DMCA takedowns is people who are profiting off the work; the copyright owner basically says, take my shit down, or but a license for $x. Both parties need to agree to a licensing agreement - but, again, most of the time, it's not really optional, because the person is infringing on the copyright.

If the person isn't infringing on copyright, they don't have to do anything. This is what fair use is for: we all have the right to learn and grow and share from each other's work - with the exception that, if your try to make money off it, that's not going to fly.

So, unless there's copyright infringement, an artist has to right to demand a name check or a link back. I mean, you can ask, but I can just say no.

Profit is vital here - if a person isn't making money off their CGI, legally, they're in the clear.

But the thing is, the models one uses to create CGI with stable diffusion or whatever, they have their own licenses - the kind that are like terms of service. "You can use this, but by doing so you're agreeing to the license terms." And models that have been trained on "illegitimate" content have licenses that bar the user from (directly) profiting from the work.

(This is why patreon is the main source of income for infringers - and patreon shuts them down if you complain, even without any legal documentation. But, again, I feel this community is microscopic. Sure, it's sketchy and shitty, but it's on such a minute scale compared to other infringements.)

So, if you really think that the very few people who are making $5/month are a bigger issue than the film industry legally using "free" CGI to suppress artist wages, then I really feel like your priorities are misaligned.

but it's a low effort attempt to call artists hypocrites and disregard their concerns.

I definitely don't mean that artists are hypocrites. Artists just want to do their thing and get credit and maybe even money. They're the victims - regardless of whether I'm right or type right, in either case, artists are the victims. Tho tbh I'm lowkey offended at your implication that only an artist should be concerned about artists losing revenue via CGI. And, also, I'm not saying "danbooru did it first" and wagging my finger at you for not breaking their door down.

I'm saying that the reason the art was used to train these models is because it was on danbooru. Or Reddit, or imgur, or whatever.

(I think danbooru is actually as much a software company as a image site? So I'm not even sure if they're the right name to use. I always use their name because Stable Diffusion uses their tag system, but idk if that's fair.)

Blaming Stable Diffusion for danbooru's infringement is sideways. Like, imagine I plugged the power in my house to piggyback off of yours. Then my friend comes over and plugs his gaming rig in and draws a shit ton of power. Are you going to be mad at him, or me?

Regarding journalism - what I meant by that is that artists are facing the same threat journalists faced, and if we don't start fighting the fight that will save them, they won't be saved. And the "you trained your model on my shit without asking" argument is not going to save them.

This is a bad faith reading. The argument isn't that "someone else did it first" - the argument is that the concern over copyright is suspiciously sudden. No one has gotten mad about danbooru - or Reddit, or Facebook, or any of the other billions of sites that use content created by others to draw users and make a profit from ad revenue. Why are people mad about some neckbeard's $3/month patreon based on an unoriginal art style, but not about Facebook (etc) destroying the entire thing that used to be called journalism? Danbooru literally stole the work, why is no one mad about that? Why are they only mad when someone figuratively steals the work?

AI art has a similar potential to do to set what Facebook did to journalism - I just wrote a long post about it in another reply in this thread so I won't repeat it all here - but, wealthy corporations will be able to use AI art to destroy the career of being an artist. That's what's dangerous about AI.

you really can't see how an imageboard has completely different considerations over image generating models?

Of course I see the difference - direct, outright theft and direct profiting from the theft is much worse then using content that's been stolen to train computer image generation software.

If your complaint is about the copyright infringement, then danbooru should be the target of your complaint - but no one seems to care about that. Why don't people care about that?

If the concern is that this software makes it easier to commit crimes, sure, I guess? But, again, danbooru. And like every other site on the internet.

The concern, it seems to me, is with person A being an artist, person B makes art and tries to pass it off as an original work by person A. And that's valid - but I still don't feel like it's worse than actually just taking the artwork and calling it "content" and using it to generate as revenue.

The main problem i have with this criticism is that (imo) there are much more important issues at stake with midjourney or whatever - and this (alleged) concern (alleged because it only seems to go skin-deep) prevents people from caring about the real issues.

Many many many jobs now, when a person leaves, they're replaced with 2 part time people. This benefits profits and hurts everyone else.

The issue with computer generated images is that, when a movie studio needs a sci fi background, it used to require an artist; now, it just requires midjourney - and you can hire the artist for 4 hours (instead of 4 days) to touch it up, fix the fingers, etc - which not only takes less time, but also less talent, which increases the labor supply, which pushes wages down.

This technology has the potential to take the career of being an artist and turns out into a low-wage, part time thing that you can't live off of. This has happened in so many parts of our economy and it's really bad, and we need to protect artists from that fate.

So no, I really can't muster up giving a shit about whether someone on pixiv copies your art and makes 3$ a month from a patreon. The entire field of visual arts is under threat of complete annihilation from greedy capitalists. They're the villains here, not some neckbeard's patreon.

Somebody tell this person about chat jippity. We don't need people for that anymore.

Samesies. I pretty much only went to Reddit via Relay - which still works, but they're going to a subscription model soon. I had like 10 Reddit accounts, one for music, one for politics, etc - I'll miss that level of content - but it's not like you can go back to it, it's just gone. So many subreddits are just bargain basement versions of what they used to be. Reddit killed Reddit, not you and me.

Download is failing. Can you give a summary?

Literally Edward Snowden mentioning it is the first time I heard of it, and after that, it was in the news a few times when big leaks happened, and the people who used Proton Mail never seemed to be the ones who got caught. That's the only I've ever heard them being "advertised" - and that's a pretty fucking good ad campaign: be one that people can rely on when their lives are at stake.

It seems like you have a problem with the wild speculation, not the acronym. Which is legit, people don't need to have opinions on every single thing they think about, and they certainly don't need to share them. But it kinda seems like they're going to anyway. And, in that case, what's better, wild speculation or wild speculation that admits it?

I feel like you're implying people should look into things before making accusations. Like, find out if what they're saying is true before they say it. And that's why no one asked you to the prom.

The danbooru aspect of the "AI" moral panic is what annoys me.

So many of my friends - many of whom are amateur artists - hate computer generated images because the copyright of the artists were violated, and they weren't even asked. And I agree that does kinda suck - but - how did that happen?

Danbooru.

The art had already been "stolen" and was available online for free. Where was their morality then? For the last decade or whatever that danbooru has been up? Danbooru is who violated the copyright, not stable diffusion or whatever.

At least computer generated imagery is different, like, the stuff it was trained on was exactly their art, while this stuff, while might look like theirs, is unique. (And often with a unique number of fingers.)

And, if "copyright" is their real concern, them surely they understand that copyright only protects against someone making a profit of their work, right? Surely they'll have looked into it and they already know that "art" made by models that used copyrighted content for training are provided from being copyrighted themselves, right? And that you can only buy/sell content made from models that are in the copyright clear, surely they know all this?

No, of course not. They don't give a shit about copyright, they just got the ickies from new tech.