highball @ highball @lemmy.world

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You gotta work on your Linux kungfu. chroot has always been around. You can install any distro, any version side by side. Now there is even DistroBox. Also, Apples switch from 680x0 to PowerPC to Intel, (Arm the exception), every time, Apple customers were told to pound sand. Imagine you spent 10 to 20 thousand dollars on hardware and equipment and software, shit adds up (it's not just buying a Macbook Pro for these artists), just to buy it all again. That's why Apple has always been called out for this. Windows forced updates are hilarious and have only gotten worse and worse over the years from what I hear. Linux can be updated live with no reboot. All my servers are setup like that and my work dev machine. Even the kernel gets updated live. Obviously Android and their forced data collection apps would be a huge no no for a Linux distro.

I'd say these aren't just "problems" with the OSes. Problems are something you can fix yourself or find a workaround. You can't work around Windows update, thousands and thousands of dollars of investment into the Apple eco system down the drain every time Apple switches architectures, or Google's mandatory spyware apps.

Like, isn’t this a failure of the Wine approach (again: FOSS architecture) to keep up with hardware, more than an actual problem with using a Mac?

Dude, you think this is about 32bit libraries. It's about way more than that. Apple customers paid money for OSX. Why would anybody think FOSS is responsible for fixing the problem Apple knowingly created and not just one time. Keep in mind, Microsoft solved this problem with their WoW64 translations layer (like WINE, but for 32bit Windows on 64bit Windows). Linux has a couple solutions, chroot or rebuilding and repackaging the binaries. Obviously there could be a 32bit to 64bit translation layer for Linux like Windows but why when you have chroot. Same thing can be done on other Unix-like OSes. Apple should have done this for each architecture change. There was no reason to f over their customers each time. Also, keep in mind, I'm not an Apple user, not ever. So it's them you have to convince that they, "weren't screwed over; over and over again". Seriously this was a joke in the late 90's. Now it's just reached bullshit levels. Rosetta was the least Apple could do.

Especially when after digging in sufficiently deeply to understand it, you find that it’s actually a deficiency with Wine, not Apple.

WINE should fix this for Apple? WINE doesn't fix it for Windows or Linux or any of the BSD's or any other Unix or Unix-like operating systems out there. None of them. If Apple wants to use WINE as the solution, then maybe Apple should pony up some of the money they made on OSX sales and pay some WINE developers and make WINE a first class citizen in OSX. Valve needs WINE for their OS, they came out of pocket; engineers and money. Apple can do the same. Especially for how much their customers pay. There is no justification for dumping this on FOSS to fix Apple's mess.

It's the same with Windows. I worked on minkernel and onekernel. There are a ton of pre-processor directives for different cpu's and all kinds of hardware pre-processor directives. Even pre-processor directives for different companies. Unused code paths are eliminated during compile time. The pre-processor directives are more of an annoyance for the developers anyways. If you didn't organize your code, then you get what you deserve.

Naa, I used to be Windows kernel dev for Intel. The backwards compatibility comes from the WoW64 translation layer in 64bit Windows. WSL1 was built off the same framework. WoW64 worked pretty good back then. Apparently there is enough drift now that you'll get the occasional old game or program that doesn't translate well under 64bit Windows anymore but, works under WINE. Rare, but still good for a laugh.

We could do the same under Linux, but it just seems pointless for Linux. Linux has chroot. Steam Runtime is based on containers which are based on chroot. Chroot is how we played 32bit games on 64bit Linux distros back before distro maintainers started including 32bit libraries with their 64bit install images.

When distro maintainers started building and shipping 64bit versions, they didn't include 32bit libraries. You had to make a chroot for a 32bit distro, then symlink those libraries in among your 64bit libraries. Once distro maintainers were confident in the 64bit builds, they added 32bit libraries. In the case of Windows, Microsoft created a translation layer similar to WINE called WoW64 (Windows on Windows64). Apple is the only one who said, fuck you buy new software, to their customers. Rosetta is the first time Apple didn't tell their customers to go pound sand; probably not by choice.

Just supply the dependencies with a chroot. That's how we did it before distro maintainers started including the 32bit libraries into the 64bit OS.

Just use a chroot. That's what SteamRuntime is. That's how we handled 32bit libraries on 64bit Linux distros prior to distros including them for gaming back in the day.

Same.

The goal posts keep moving. I remember when it was the Year of Linux. Linux dominates every market except Desktop and Console. The Year of "Desktop" Linux is what we've shifted too. The only thing that's kept Windows the dominant OS on Desktop is vendor lockin. Windows isn't even the dominant OS on Azure. How pathetic. Without vendor lockin, Linux would have seen all kinds of money for engineering efforts from PC manufacturers for Desktop. Sad part is, so many people actually think they chose Windows.

"You can have any color car you want, as long as it's green." - Comrade Car Salesman

I'm in the same boat. Just buy games. Don't care if it's supported by Proton. If it's not now, it will be soon. That's how I feel. So far, everything I've bought has worked flawlessly.

When the new CosmicDE gets to stable, I'm 100% switching.

Funny how the "Year of Linux" had to switch to the "Year of Desktop Linux". Any place Microsoft can not use their vendor lockin strategy, some you mention, Linux eventually dominates.

Correct. Azure Linux. They've been slowly adding to their Linux distro piece by piece over the years. It's more expensive to run Windows in the cloud than it is Linux. My bet is, Office 365 will one day give you Azure Linux with a Windows userland and a Windows DE. 90% of the users probably wouldn't even know the difference. The few folks whose programs actually need Windows will probably just fall back to full Windows while the rest of everybody just uses Azure Linux; saving Microsoft millions.

Not sure why you think you are arguing. You said you didn't think Linux was taking over anytime soon and you gave your reasoning. Makes sense. I made the claim, so I gave you my reasoning. As I said I've been using Linux for almost thirty years. I'm a Software Developer, obviously I would be using Linux professionally. I can understand if you've felt the burn from all the "Arch BTW's" and the "Mint FYI" fanboys out there. Pretty sure I gave you unfanboy like advice by telling you to stop fighting a Janky mess. Get the tools you need. If that means Windows or MacOS or something else, then let that be it. That's what I did. I needed Linux for work and I liked using Linux, so that's what I used. That also meant I only had a few game titles that would reliably play. But that's what I needed. That's how it goes sometimes. That's what I gave you the same advice.

Windows is dominant only on Desktop thanks to their Vendor lockin strategy. Everywhere else, it's Linux (except game consoles). Even Linux is the dominant OS on Azure, Microsoft's cloud platform. Handheld PC's are going to SteamOS. Even Microsofts OEM partners Lenovo and Asus are getting on board with their handheld PC's. The reason they can do this is because Microsoft was forced to make Windows free on small screen devices (Build 2014). Linux has 80% of the IoT market. As Microsoft's vendor lockin strategy continues to weaken, Linux will continue to take over. It's only a matter of time. That 1-2% is only Steam Gaming world wide. For English speakers we are about 5%. Which, consequently is enough to get Day 1 Proton support for many Triple A game titles. 3-4 years from now, the games that will be releasing will have been developed from start to finish with Proton as a first class citizen. The Desktop landscape will be wildly different, no question.

Linux is a bit snappier to interact with, but everything I do works on Windows, so that arrangement means not using Linux at all, indefinitely.

Yep, sometimes that's the breaks.

Been using Linux for almost three decades now. Just use Linux for what you need it for. Use Windows for what you need it for. Stop using either OS for the sake of using either OS. Gaming on Linux has come a hell of a long way in the last couple years. In a couple more years, the gaming landscape will be wildly different. You can always reassess at that time. If you have a couple games that are your number 1 must plays and they only work on Windows, then just use Windows. Trying to cobble together some janky mess, it's just not worth it at all. Personally, I just played the games that played on Linux for a lot of years. It's great what Proton has done for gaming on Linux. But if your games or your work are still on the fringe for Linux, no hard feelings. Just use what OS you need. That's how this is all supposed to work. 30 years ago before Microsoft's vendor lockin strategy. We bought pieces of software because we needed that software. Then we bought the OS that that software needed and bought the hardware that that OS worked on. Then you'd look and see what games were available to you and that was it. You should do the same. Linux is taking over anyways. Microsoft's vendor lockin strategy is coming to an end if they don't do something soon. In 3-4 years from now, you will see a lot of investment into the desktop side of Linux. You can always come back then.

Look up what makes a GUI. Something can be graphical but not GUI. Something that is GUI is obviously graphical. "All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs".

It's called a terminal emulator because it emulates graphically what used to output to a printer at the console of a mainframe. Then you got CRT monitors. The mainframes like the PDP-10 would output to a printer or CRT monitor. This was your terminal. A printer writes the output from the mainframe 1 character at a time, left to right, top to bottom. The CRT monitors were made to do the same. Obviously before outputting to a printer or CRT monitor, the output would show on a set of lights on the console. If you watched them change enough, you would know where you were in your program as it ran (obviously something only doable because the opcodes were not running in parallel through super scalar pipelines in the Ghz). With printers and monitors, you could increase the amount of feedback you get from the running or exiting program and give input to the system via a keyboard.

So, the terminal is not "technically" a GUI. We do use a GUI to emulate a terminal which receives the actual terminal output from the system and then displays it for you. They are not the same thing at all. GUI is a paradigm for what you display on a Monitor for the user to interact with. Modern monitors are fast enough that they can and do work well with the GUI paradigm. You definitely wouldn't be sending GUI context to a printer.

So, if I switch the terminal output back to my dot matrix printer instead of my monitor, like back in the day, it's not graphical right?

I use a DO droplet with docker compose. Filthy dev here too. Much cheaper overtime than buying and hosting home server equipment.

I hear you. the vi family, even helix (which is an IDE where the vi-like editors are not) takes quite of bit of use for things to just be natural. If I knew a terminal editor like nano but as powerful as VSCode that would be a great option for you. I'm sure it's out there, I just don't know what it is. But frogmouth is what you want to review the rendered markdown. tmux with helix and frogmouth is such a simple combo. I'm sure there is a hx/vi-like/vscode alternative out there. I mean, it's the internet, guaranteed somebody else wanted that too.

Another tip though, since I think most people have never heard of it. Xonsh instead of bash shell. It's a shell done in python. Then you can drop bash, php, and perl. Just stick with python. xonsh also has a wrapper for running bash scripts too, so you don't have to redo old work. It's worth a look to see if xonsh can simplify some things for you.