flossdaily @ flossdaily @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

According to who?

You have to take these stories with a grain of salt.

Do you remember the Jenin massacre?

Do you remember all the awful things that the Israelis did? It was horrific.

... Except ...

It never happened. The Palestinians lied about it.

That's a terrible analogy because it doesn't fit the fact that for all kinds of reasons.

But for the sake of argument, let's accept part of your basic premise.

Let's assume that decades ago someone took over half of your grandma's house (in which your large family lives). You're super pissed that you have been relegated to half of what you still think of as your house.

The people in "your" house with you are much, much, much, much tougher than you, and you will never, ever, ever get them out by force.

The people in your house with you have tried time and again to come to a peaceful living situation with you, but you hate them so much that you have refused literally every single offer to live in harmony.

You constantly throw rocks at their children. Every once in a while you kill one of their children.

You do this while hiding behind your own children, so that if they fight back and shoot you, there's a very good chance they'll hit your children.

This is fine with you because you value the news story this will create more than you value the life of your own child.

The people in "your" house have the deed to the house, and have the might to do whatever they want with the house, and ask the neighbors recognize it is their house, even if they sometimes grumble about it.

The people in "your" house build a fence through the middle of the house to prevent you from killing their children, which you are still trying to do every single day.

The people in your house make sure you get food and water, but they are so sick of your violent behavior that they are choking you off from luxuries or prosperity of any kind.

You know your children could have a better life if you just accepted that you'll never get the whole house back. Heck, if you asked nicely, you could probably still get a deed to the part of the house your live in. You could pass that on to your kids. They could rebuild. They could thrive by working with the people in "your" house.

But you hate the people in your house more than you love your own kids. So you keep this futile, hopeless, fighting going. And every day you wake up trying to kill their children.

I don't disagree.

On the other hand, Palestinian police make literally zero effort to reign in their own terrorists.

Interesting you say that. In the Israel Palestine conflict, Israel was set up with the blessing of the international community and the sovereign powers that controlled the land at the time.

It was the surrounding Arab Nations that tried to invade and destroy Israel.

It was Israel's COUNTER attack that created the occupied territories.

But the Palestinian refugee crisis would not have happened but for the aggression of Israel's neighbors.

Correct. Giving Palestinians the ability to vote Israel out of existence, and turn it into a Jew-hating Muslim theocracy is absolutely the worse option of those two.

Peace cannot begin and end with asking Jews to opt in to suicide.

And?

The Allies wouldn't let post-wwii Germany have a military either.

You don't let the people who tried to kill you build an army in peace time only to grow powerful enough to kill you.

The Palestinian refugees only exist because the countries that they used to belong to try to invade and destroy Israel.

Intent isn't hard to prove at all.

Hamas expressly and proudly states is trying to kill Israeli civilians.

Israel has very openly and transparently shown that time and again they give civilians warnings ahead of time that buildings are being targeted and they are given time to evacuate.

This isn't a mystery.

Sure, except I can't picture Trump doing that much work.

Israel has never targeted civilians. Palestinians have always targeted civilians.

Hamas uses civilians as meat shields.

When people like you take INTENT out of the equation, your just doing Hamas's bidding.

Also missing from the picture is that for decades Hamas has been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, building bombs and rockets in the houses where children live, shooting rockets from inside schools and hospitals.

Hamas gave Israel the choice of letting it's own children die, and not shooting back, or shooting back and Knowing that no matter how hard they tried (and they try pretty fucking hard) that they wouldn't be able to avoid civilian deaths.

And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.

The chart shows military might. It doesn't show intent. It doesn't show who tried to avoid bloodshed. It doesn't show who ignited conflict after conflict.

A similar chart showing civilian deaths in WWII would show the US killed way more Nazi civilians than vice versa. Would you be arguing that the US was the bad guy in that war?

This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.

It doesn't say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn't say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.

If you think this chart shows that Israel is the bad guy, you would absolutely shit yourself if you saw a similar chart comparing the US and Nazi Germany.

At last count, Hamas had something like a 75 percent approval rating in Gaza.

The support among all Palestinians is just over 50 percent.

Only 14 percent support the opposition party.

The native Americans would beg to differ about how the United States treated the people who were here before them.

This is who they have always been. In over half a century of conflict they have only ever chosen terrorism. Never once have they tried to achieve their goals through passive resistance, despite the historical lessons of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr, that this is the only strategy that works against overwhelming military force.

And the reason they haven't tried it is because peaceful coexistance is not their goal. They want Israel destroyed, and have shown the world for the better part of a century that they will settle for literally nothing less.

What a special piece of shit he is.

The Oslo peace Accords that Palestinians walked away from and immediately started a famously cruel wave of terrorist attacks? Those Oslo Accords?

All governments engaged in self defense kill people. What's important is to what degree they try to minimize collateral damage, and Israel indisputably takes more steps to minimize civilian casualties than any other fighting force in history.

The problem with that argument is that you've completely removed intent from it.

Hamas INTENDS to murder innocent civilians.. Hamas INTENDS to use civilians as human shields seek that any retaliation will get them killed.

Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to minimum civilian casualties, calling ahead to give I people a chance to evacuate military targets before demolishing them.

So by all means, measure the same metric: intent

Oh really. Name one time in history that the Palestinians agreed to a peace deal that wouldn't have left Israel with indefensible borders or a "right of return" which would allow Palestinians to essentially vote in overwhelming numbers to turn Israel into an anti-Jewish theocracy?