flora_explora @ flora_explora @beehaw.org

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2 yr. ago

Ahhhh, this feels so wrong :((((

Apparently the jaguars don't eat the DMT containing shrub P. viridis, but this other ingredient in ayahuasca called yage (Banisteriopsis caapi) that does not contain DMT (see the other response to my last comment).

Caapi contains the following harmala alkaloids:

Harmine, 0.31–8.43% Harmaline, 0.03–0.83% Tetrahydroharmine, 0.05–2.94% These alkaloids of the beta-carboline class act as monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOIs).

So, no psychoactive substance, right??

In high doses, it acts as purgative

Maybe the jaguars are not actually tripping but are just using it for their metabolism?

MAOIs are also used as antidepressants in humans because they inhibit the metabolism of monoamine compounds such as serotonin and norepinephrine.. Maybe the jaguars are going for this?

Thanks. That was a bit too anecdotal for me so I actually searched around a bit more. Didn't find much but at least this one review article:

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/pdf/10.1055/a-1586-1665.pdf

Banisteriopsis caapi (Spruce ex Griseb.) C. V. Morton (Malpighiaceae): jaguar Some Amazonian people credit their uses of Banisteriopsis caapi, also widely known as ‘ayahuasca,’ from watching jaguars [14]. In the Amazonian rainforest, jaguars have been filmed gnawing on the bitter roots, bark and leaves of this plant, after which they appear dazed, rolling on their backs (www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGDv0KCJl8). A similar behavior reported in many felid species, including domestic cats, is the frenzy induced by catnip (Nepeta cataria L.) or silver vine (Actinidia polygama [Siebold & Zucc.] Planch. ex Maxim.), which are reported to also have mosquito-and bedbug-repellent activities [54, 55].

[...]

Jaguarsʼ ingestion of ayahuasca can tentatively be classified as Mode 3 self-medication, for many of the same reasons given above, or possibly Mode 4 if evidence were available to show jaguars using the plant were doing so directly for its anthelmintic properties. However, more detailed information is needed to further understand the context of jaguars and other animals consuming plants with hallucinogenic properties by; for example, do they hunt afterwards, or do they ingest plants when parasite levels are high, and does it subsequently lower these levels? The plantʼs properties could promote alertness or simply be a byproduct of Jaguarsʼ hedonic attraction to the plant, with the functional value being its antiparasitic properties. These pharmacological properties lend support to the functional aspects of the plant for jaguars, but more work needs to be done to understand the possible adaptive value of hallucinogen ingestion in animals.

Although the presented evidence is again this same short, very heavily edited video of a jaguar supposedly tripping on the yage vine.

And regarding the effect on or the reasons of the jaguar, we apparently don't know and how could we, if all the evidence is this one short clip already suggesting what it is doing? Not very satisfying I must say.

ETA: OK, so I dug a bit deeper as seen in my other comment. Apparently this vine isn't even really psychoactive: "The harmala alkaloids are not especially psychedelic, even at higher dosages, when hypnagogic visions, alongside vomiting and diarrhea, become the main effect." So, what are the jaguars tripping on then? Maybe they aren't! Maybe they use it for its purgative effects? This seems all extremely sketchy to me. I don't think we can definitely say that jaguars are using these vines for their psychoactive effects and saying that they are tripping on ayahuasca is definitely wrong.

Hahaha nice!

Yes, so conversation irl is just that, isn't it? It is mostly concerned with species that are marketed as being endangered and so it's usually cute or humanlike species that you can more easily market to people.

Ah thanks, this way the meme makes much more sense!!

How can jaguars consume ayahuasca if it is a beverage containing various ingredients that work together to be potent? What do they actually consume?

Ayahuasca is a hallucinogen commonly made by the prolonged decoction of the stems of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine and the leaves of the Psychotria viridis shrub, although hundreds of species are used in addition or substitution (See "Preparation" below). P. viridis contains N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a highly psychedelic substance. Although orally inactive, B. caapi is rich with harmala alkaloids, such as harmine, harmaline and tetrahydroharmine (THH), which can act as monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOi). This halts the liver and gastrointestinal metabolism of DMT, allowing it to reach the systemic circulation and the brain, where it activates 5-HT1A/2A/2C receptors in frontal and paralimbic areas.

• Wiki on ayahuasca

Do they consume Psychotria viridis leaves and does the DMT work this way?

It just isn't feasible. But maybe this is my ecological background speaking. Because, sure, if I'd look at different branches of science, it might be doable and also useful. But if you look at ecology (and making a map of every tree is ecology) then this just isn't useful enough for a task that is basically impossible to achieve. That's why in ecological research there are some standard sampling methods, like plots, transects, etc. Within these, you could do a map of all the trees if necessary. But these will be only a fraction of the whole system you look at.

#3 is not about making observations in general but about making a map of every tree. This is a common mistake of scientists, wanting to have a complete set of data on their topic. I myself have to remind myself of this as well when designing projects. But in reality you cannot make a map of every tree and even if you could, what's it worth? You need abstractions to understand anything and models are just that. To design a good research study you need to balance how many observations are necessary vs how much effort they take.

Why though?

Hahahaha, thanks for reminding me of Staplerfahrer Klaus <3

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking! They cannot really tell what they look like or what they should look like. But based on various pressures and weights, they slowly get pushed to look like a cobra, for example. Amazing!

Which is which? Is the queen mounting the drone?

Wow, this sounds so cool!!! I made a faux black tea the other day using Chamaenerion angustifolium (I fermented it a bit as well). But it didn't really come close to real tea for me. Maybe I'll add something fragrant like you did to enhance the flavor a bit :)

What a nice post, thanks for sharing :)

Haven't heard of the new jersey tea plant before (I'm European) but it sounds so cool! Do you use it for anything in particular? Like making tea?

My point was that it is nothing like in kangaroos. The comparison is just misleading.

Except that in cangaroos the mother actually needs to be pregnant and birth its babies first. In sea horses the female directly lays the eggs inside the pouch of the male, impregnating it, and the male then undergoes pregnancy. So actually very different to kangaroos?

Usually animals are categorized as male and female based on what type of gametes their gonads produce. So male sea horses produce sperm.

Not sure how to count the "pregnancy" though, as these are fish and because of the following:

The male seahorse is equipped with a brood pouch on the ventral, or front-facing, side of the tail. When mating, the female seahorse deposits up to 1,500 eggs in the male's pouch. The male carries the eggs for 9 to 45 days until the seahorses emerge fully developed, but very small. The young are then released into the water, and the male often mates again within hours or days during the breeding season

From Wikipedia

E: the wiki article goes on to talk about pregnant sea horses, so yeah, they are pregnant and they do get impregnated by female sea horses!

Haha yes, it is sometimes sad when other people around cannot really appreciate certain thoughts or concepts of one's own.

One book that really got me excited about studying biology well over a decade ago was Evolution in four dimensions, which touches on some similar topics as in our conversation. Or maybe even in reverse, how language is actually some dimension of evolution in itself. Since then my knowledge on evolution and genetics got a bit rusty because I specialized in ecology. But I find it deeply fascinating how evolution works and what mind-boggling stuff it came up with.

Hm, I think I start to see your point. I guess the thought of language as something like human language is biasing a lot what we consider language. It feels kinda weird, but if I shake off this narrow view on what a language is, all sorts of alternative ways to look at it come to mind.

I think it helped that you mentioned a technical manual that is a form of language but that doesn't count as a conversation. And having a conversation in itself is very much biased by our human form of language.

And now that you mention the proteome and metabolome, it really seems like a much richer form of information and that much more back-and-forth is happening. I guess epigenetics have shown that the DNA/RNAs are much more plastic than we thought, too.

Thanks for this conversation, it did actually help me get to explore this much more and change my mind :)