darq @ darq @kbin.social

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2 yr. ago

And because of the electoral college, odds are decent that their votes count more than yours do. So actually, their views are more relevant than liberal views. Because "democracy".

It's weird, the second I disagree with you on this, you immediately make a whole bunch of weird assumptions about me. About what I think, what media I consume, and my actions. All of those assumptions based on nothing at all.

And all of those assumptions, are wrong. I know a decent bit about the MRA movement. I actually used to tangentially support it when I was younger. Because I think men's issues are real, and that men need support.

But when I read through your forums, all I saw in response to actual problems was tribalism. I saw people bringing up genuine issues men face in the world, but not to actually try and address those problems, rather to point fingers and lay the blame at the feet of feminism and women and progressives. To reinforce an angry, misogynistic worldview. They were a space for men who were often justifiably upset to vent their frustrations, but not to be offered genuine support, but to be offered something and someone to blame.

And I think men deserve better than that.

MRAs are analogous to feminists.

No they aren't. For one, feminists have been accomplishing meaningful upliftment of women, rather than just complaining on the Internet.

What a ridiculous argument.

The state isn't spending resources, they are telling school districts to stop spending resources abusing kids.

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Hang on. You completely mischaracterised the situation in your previous comment, but then when that is pointed out to you, you just continue on without acknowledging that you had the situation completely backwards?

No. Acknowledge that you previous argument was nonsense.

Imagine your kid coming home with a black eye

Why are you imagining a completely different situation and pretending that it is relevant to what is happening here?

A child trying out a different name or pronouns is not harmful to the child or anyone else. A child suffering physical abuse is.

They know if anyone tries to tell them to keep a secret from Mom and Dad that person is bad person.

But that isn't what is happening in this situation. The teachers are not telling the child to keep a secret. The child is asking the teachers to keep a secret. It's literally the opposite situation.

Crazy. Schools are there to work for the parents, not hide things from them.

If the child felt safe at home, their parents would likely already know.

If child abuse is suspected they are required to report it to police.

Firstly, the abuse could start after the parent's are notified, at which point it is too late. But secondly you and I both know that this is absolutely not how things actually shake out in the real world. Parents regularly get away with abusing their children, even more so when the abuse is not physical.

If any teacher tried to hide something like this from me about my kid I’d report them for child abuse.

Then I hope you face consequences for spurious reporting.

(edit: apostrophe's!)

Yup. Even in the same piece of legislation:

• Teachers cannot be forced to gender students correctly, because free speech. (The parents' "parental rights" over how their child is addressed don't apply)
• Teachers cannot choose to gender students correctly, because "parental rights". (The teachers free speech rights to choose how they address the child don't apply)

But it is worth pointing out, as much as it seems hypocritical of them to do this: Conservatives know. They do not care. It's not hypocritical because they have never believed that the rules should ever apply to them. It's a strategy, and it is very, very effective.

(edit: typo)

Yeah seriously this is a basic safeguarding concern. Don't out people. If the child wants their parents to know, they will tell them as and when they are ready.

Lovely...

Yup. Absolutely. I think most minoritised groups can relate to that experience.

Did you mean to respond to someone else?

There's a difference between alleviating someone's fears when they are overthinking an interaction, and dismissing someone's concerns as exaggeration or imaginings.

Maybe you are only doing the former. But your comment was wall-to-wall red flags.

If my comment was off the mark and my comment was not what you’re talking about then it is not an example of people not believing you its an example of me thinking you were talking about something else.

And the fact that you thought I was just talking about people being nasty, suggested part of the problem I am referring to. I am glad at least you are aware of the systemic issues trans people face, most people are not.

I can imagine saying they are exaggerating the impact of political legislation depending on what it is.

Yeah. This right here is the exact thing I'm talking about.

Because I point out those policies, and I get told I'm exaggerating about their effects and impact. Or I point out the transphobic rhetoric of politicians, celebrities, and influencers, and I get told I'm exaggerating about their effects and impact.

And I know multiple trans women in my friend group in a major world city who have had assholes try and physically mess with them. It's not as rare as you perhaps want to believe. It's not up to you to decide what other people are concerned about. It's one thing to alleviate someone's fears by reassuring them that assault is not likely. But it's another thing entirely to dismiss their concerns as overblown.

I swear im the only person on the internet who treats trans people like normal people and not porcelain people who require 100 layers of bubble wrap just to go outside.

You can sod right off with this condescension, yeah? Trans people put up with inordinate amounts of crap, just trying to get by day to day. We get harassed and accused of the most vile things, we get discriminated against in healthcare and employment, we're a political football and we see our lives being debated on the news on a weekly basis, we get kicked out or have to flee our homes.

We aren't porcelain. We aren't delicate. Quite the opposite.

But yeah sometimes when we're with people we think we can trust, and maybe experience a little compassion for a change. And when we think we have found a space where we can let our guard down a bit, we can get a bit touchy about defending that. But can you blame us?

Just to be clear here.

Firstly, your previous comment was off the mark. While people misgendering you and being nasty to you is a part of being trans, that isn't all I was talking about.

Trans people today are facing systemic threats. The things I worry about aren't if someone is going to misgender me or be mean to me, but if I'm going to be able to maintain access to my healthcare, or if I'm going to be discriminated against in the workplace, or if I'm going to be harassed or maybe even assaulted if I go out dressed as I please. In other places in the world, families are being separated if the parent or child is transgender, and mainstream conservative politicians and influencers are calling for us to be forcibly detransitioned, or in some cases imprisoned or even killed because they consider us obscene, predatory, and a danger to women and children. It's not mean, it's genocidal. And it's not fringe either, in both the US and the UK transphobia is not just popular, it's policy.

If trans people only had to deal with getting misgendered now and then, I would be incredibly happy.

And your comment is an example of what I meant about people not really believing us. The default assumption a lot of cisgender people make is that the main problems transgender people face are about misgendering or pronouns or something, when the real problems are far more material, and far more dangerous. But even as I typed the above paragraph, I know there are people reading it who are going to think that I'm exaggerating. Even people who think that they are trans-supportive.

But then secondly, yeah. A trans person is telling you about what they go through, the transphobia they face, and you are explaining at them about why they are wrong about their own experiences. You haven't experienced what they have, and if you are cisgender, you likely aren't able to experience it. You say you understand the trauma. But you don't. I promise you, you do not.

I don't know what your friend was telling you. Maybe she was exaggerating, or imagining things. I don't know. But if I were a betting person? I would favour the odds that you were dismissing legitimate concerns, and invalidating your friend. Because that's what it is, nine times out of ten, in my experience.

Can I ask, does this include T4T too for you?

Thank you for proving my point.

Not the OP, but if you are soliciting opinions...

For me it's the fact that nobody really believes us when we talk about our issues or even the things we personally experience. Even well meaning people, even friends, immediately assume that we are exaggerating or imagining things when we talk, or assume they know better about what is or is not harmful to us.

Like the obvious hateful transphobes are one thing. But getting that attitude from people one knows personally is tiring and more than a little scary.

If the Rs get to this point, there won't be another election. It is already in the Republican playbook to undermine democracy to remain in power. That's why they gerrymander so aggressively, that's why they make it more difficult to vote in areas that vote against them. That's also why they talk about changing how Electoral College electors are chosen and have to vote.

The Republicans are gradually working towards the tipping point where they never have to face another election.

They are already saying that now.