cujo @ cujo @sh.itjust.works

Used to be aRatherDapperFox@lemmy.ml. Moved for various reasons, mainly ser

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2 yr. ago

I have since changed my overall view on this topic as others brought up their license's verbiage that seems to be designed to threaten people into not rebuilding their source lest they lose access to their rightfully paid for license, but I'll comment on this specific point.

Per RHEL, their metrics show that this:

Red Hat became this big was partially due to the support and promotion from the Linux enthusiasts advocating their use in their companies.

was a nice idea, but not a reality for them. They didn't see that turn around the way hobbyist and enthusiasts claim they did. Again, I'm not in support of all the decisions RHEL is making in regards to this, and I'm not saying we should blindly take their word for it. But they have addressed this particular point in saying "Yeah, we kinda thought that would happen too, but it didn't."

But that's all kind of a moot point now, since their ToS is kind of damning.

Very true!

So the question becomes what is classified as a part of the "Subscription Services"? To what part of their products are they applying this part of the license? Because from what I can tell, and again I am not an expert by any means, RHEL's message seems to be "the sources are still there, but we can't keep doing your job for you." The company put a lot of effort into making it exceptionally easy for rebuilders to do their rebuilds. It sounds to me like the goal is not to artificially increase the difficulty of rebuilding RHEL sources, but to just... Stop going out of their way to make it easier.

EDIT to add: someone else linked and quoted their license. And uh... Yikes. 😬

I appreciate all the discussion on the topic! Sounds like RHEL is getting a little high and mighty about this.

I'll see if I can't dig it up.

Judging on their own blog post, a lot of this decision making wasn't because of the people using rebuilders because they "don't need support," which was never really the goal IMO. CentOS seemed, to me at least, to fill the gap of "people who want to use RHEL but can't or don't need to afford the price tag; for hobbyists and learners." And RHEL is reporting that their research shows the majority of people using rebuilders right now are not those groups of people, they're professional enterprise environments who are trying to avoid RHEL's fees.

To me, if you are a business who wants a Linux server but doesn't want to pay RHEL's price tag... Use something else. There's Ubuntu Server, Fedora Server, Debian, and dozens more distros that cater to enterprise usage for absolutely free. RHEL does not. From what I can tell, the rebuilders are not adding any kind of value to the situation. And, again, RHEL's own word on the situation seems to be "the sources are still there, we just won't do your job for you anymore."

EDIT to add: I am not against the rebuilders doing their thing. I am actually for it. But right now, everything I am seeing on the practical side of things is this: RHEL used to put in a lot of work making the rebuilders' job easier. They don't seem to want to artificially increase the difficulty of rebuilding RHEL sources, just to stop actively spending money making it easier when that work doesn't return any money for the effort. Which is... Totally fair.

This is... Kinda where I'm at right now. Yeah, it's absolutely shitty of RHEL to violate GPL distribution clauses on GPL licensed code. We have to see exactly how that licensing plays out, and to what parts of their service they're applying it to.

I am not opposed to FOSS companies making money off their hard work, though, and it's hard to do when other people steal your homework and sell it for cheaper. My question to those in support of the rebuilders, and I ask this not as a challenge but from a place of ignorance without the time to devote to really digging too deeply into this right now, what do Rocky and the like add to the situation? They rebuild RHEL source and distribute it free or cheaply. But what are they adding to the equation? Are they giving back to the FOSS community or are they just leeching off of RHEL's success?

I was telling a friend of mine, sometimes I feel like people forget the F in FOSS isn't "free as in free beer," it's "free as in free speech" with "free beer" frequently tacked on as an extra, lol.

Which is perfectly valid. I was looking for sources on that, as I haven't seen any. It looks like others may have linked them, so I'll go have a look.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but... The folks at RHEL aren't factually wrong. They're not violating any GPL clauses by putting source code behind a paywall, or by not putting in all the work they have been these past years to basically spoon-feed their source to rebuilders.

RHEL has contributed and continues to contribute a lot to the FOSS community. Take the time to read this RHEL blog post that was linked to by Rocky. By metrics, the majority of people taking advantage of rebuilders aren't hobbyists or students trying to become familiar with RHEL, it's professionals who are trying to avoid the pricetag associated with all the work and support and value RHEL provides. As they say, they've got a lot of people working on that project, and those people need to be paid for their work. Sure, they could take donations... Or you could pay for their product.

As far as I can tell, all this uproar about RHEL is basically the community getting up in arms because RHEL has decided to stop devoting resources to such activities as... De-branding their sources to make the lives of rebuilders easier? Rebuilders can still do their jam, they just have to put in a little more elbow grease now.

I haven't seen anything about RHEL cutting off paying customers who share source. It wasn't in the link you shared, it wasn't in any of the links provided by Rocky in said blog post you shared. I'd love to read about it if I've missed it, and reform my opinions.

EDIT to add: folks below have provided links and quoted segments from RHEL's license. I encourage everyone passing through to look them over, as they're pretty damning and unambiguous in their language, and was the piece I was missing as I formed the above opinion. Thanks everyone for the discussion!

OpenSUSE! Aeon, to be specific. (Used to be MicroOS)

Some people do, sure. I don't think most people think about it hard enough to consider that they'd be looked down upon for not helping. They do because they're capable and because they're present, often without thought. Your world view is jaded, which is understandable. But I do not agree with it.

On the surface, your assertion seems to imply that you think you're better than the majority of people because you do things "because you're capable" and that others only do the same menial tasks because they'd be looked down on if they didn't. That's a dangerously self-centric way to look at things. I don't think that's really what you intended to imply, but... It's there.

EDIT: Please don't misinterpret, I'm not accusing you of thinking you're better, just stating that that's a possible interpretation of what you said and asking if you knew. I appreciate the candid discussion!

So, if there were no consequences, you'd walk into a store and take whatever you wanted without paying? And if someone tried to stop you, you'd beat them down for it? You'd push a disabled person into traffick for money? You'd be willing to sell children into slavery?

Morals don't happen just because something bad happens to you when you do bad things. As the other comment says, morals happen because humans are, at their core, an empathetic species. It's how we survived. It's how we evolved to create and use tools, it's how we developed society. Yes, there are unempathetic individuals who stand on the backs of the rest, squeezing every ounce of value out allowed within the law (and some don't even stop there) but they are a very visible minority, in my experience.

Isn't OnlyOffice proprietary software?