commiewithoutorgans [he/him, comrade/them] @ commiewithoutorgans @hexbear.net

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4 yr. ago

Imagine for a split second that the strongest government in the world is constantly attempting to cause the overthrow of your legitimately popular government, despite it being popular and significantly beloved by almost all people there. This external, most powerful government in the world tried to cause unrest in every possible way, including funding all opposition groups and organizations regardless of their violent/genocidal intent (e.g. Falun Gong, Islamic terror groups) and cause unrest on your borders (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Korea).

What do you do? When good faith polling shows that you're popular and fulfilling the needs and desires of your country's working class but a foreign press tries to speak about the terribleness and need for overthrow, do you just let that happen with more money and propoganda than you can possibly provide to support yourself? Or do you censor the BS and report to your population that these images/ideas/orgs are actually subversive and attempting to change the government they legitimately love.

In this hypothetical situation, what do you propose? Allowing the propaganda but claiming it's wrong has failed in many projects, and resulted in massacres once fascism won (Chile, Indonesia). Just trying to set up a wall of no information works for a bit, but info can cross anyways (USSR). Allowing limited access if you search for it but not allowing it's widespread propagation is the method of china. A VPN allows you to see it all, but it can't be spread too widely before it is stopped from being viral.

Do you have a better solution? Because this is how China presents itself and how the Chinese population sees it

Its not about universal values at all but about what the Chinese People want and what the party determined is the interests of their communist goals. I don't love that China treats Israel as anything other than the fascist government it is, but the biggest difference is locality/direct influence. Russia is directly affected by the fascists at their border, because their fascism is directed eastward. China isn't impacted by the Israeli fascism and therefore has no direct interests.

Maybe you call this classic liberalism, but the analysis here begins in a materialist position. China just takes the very minimal-conflict path within their material position. This means that great evils occurring elsewhere do not trump their need to develop and become strong enough to become communist. Once those evils are aimed towards them, they react and sometimes not perfectly, but in the way which is protectionist. Hopefully, from their example, we can learn to be better at exporting revolutions like the USSR but without destroying ourselves, like the USSR allowed itself to be destroyed (the phrasing here isn't meant to indicate systemic intent, but it wasn't prevented obviously). I hope we can be better at internationalism than China but they're surviving and influencing the world while every other communist led country has been marred by a sort of irrelevance to the rest of the world if they didn't get destroyed.

Also one of my favorites. Nia writes really well and is absurdly informed

I think this response is really necessary for this type of person. Work with us and we will try our best to avoid any violence, just like Lenin or most of the historical socialist revolutionaries. We figure out how to less-violently or even non-violently remove the power of the bourgeoisie and we will gladly do it. But the fact is that for libs the discussion of possible needs for strategic violence is itself proof of the impossibility of working together, and for some it's because they know that this removes all possibility of actually winning and for others it's because they're blinded by their ideology and think that reformism hasn't been tried hard enough.

Bring some new ideas not based in self-defeating liberalism about how we can avoid violence. I'll listen and try to apply them. But don't tell us we're dumb for realizing it hasn't worked yet, no matter how many people claim it's the best

Vast majority of the links in similar articles are circular or to "original reporting" from people who weren't there or reporting based on US government sources. But like the other commenter said, it's absolutely true and agreed by the PRC that hundreds died in fighting around the city. No lies there are all, but the lead up to it makes clear that the forces which resulted in fighting at all were liberal and imperialist-aligned forces. https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/