Russia Is Trying to Leave the Internet and Build Its Own
cacheson @ cacheson @kbin.social Posts 15Comments 164Joined 2 yr. ago
cacheson @ cacheson @kbin.social
Posts
15
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164
Joined
2 yr. ago
I was hoping to avoid getting deep enough into this that I have to break out the block quotes myself, but oh well. Here we are.
you shouldn’t make a straw man out of the position of people you disagree with or be uncivil.
I don't think I've been any less charitable than you and weirdwallace75, though. It's not like any of us are steel-manning each others points. And why would we? There's no benefit in this context. It'd just be a longer route to the conclusion that I jumped to early, that we fundamentally disagree and that an internet comments argument with strangers is not going to be sufficient to change any minds. If we were all friends, and frequently spent time discussing things in person, and trusted each other, then sure, maybe we could make some progress. But we're not, and we don't. ¯(ツ)/¯
It’s not clear what exactly you’re accusing me of. Mindlessly parroting other peoples’ views?
Sort of? See the definition of talking points. Not necessarily mindless, but certainly low-effort and static. Like, I've seen all of them before. Literally every single anti-gun talking point. They didn't get me to change my mind the first dozen times, so why would they now? They simply do not address the reasons that I am in favor of a well-armed society. As an anarchist, I care about how power is allocated. I want power to be widely distributed, not concentrated. And guns are tools of power.
If what I said is so weak and easily refuted it’s a little strange that the best rebuttal you can come up with is “you’re wrong”.
I didn't say that they were easily refuted. Just as I don't find the talking points convincing, I don't expect you to find the usual responses to them convincing either. We'd just get bogged down in side arguments. However, I also wasn't inclined to concede the point. Which leaves us at "you're wrong".
Why do you think you know what I’m concerned about?
Because you said it yourself? You likened planning for fascist violence to planning for the rapture.
I could be far left,
I could be far right,
You're not. I'm certain enough of it to bet money. Unless this has all been a very weird acting exercise.
none of that would have any bearing on something that comes down to the question of “is this an effective tool for the task”.
It does, though. Your worldview affects your perception of the problem, and your perception of the potential tools for dealing with it. It affects what you pay attention to, what you learn, and what you dismiss. We disagree both on the level of severity and on the effectiveness of each tool, due to our differences in worldview.
I’m a Utilitiarian
I'm not really talking about utilitarianism vs egoism or whatever else, though that could play a small part. I'm more referring to the totality of our worldviews, our mental models of how everything works.
I was hoping to avoid getting deep enough into this that I have to break out the block quotes myself, but oh well. Here we are.
you shouldn’t make a straw man out of the position of people you disagree with or be uncivil.
I don't think I've been any less charitable than you and weirdwallace75, though. It's not like any of us are steel-manning each others points. And why would we? There's no benefit in this context. It'd just be a longer route to the conclusion that I jumped to early, that we fundamentally disagree and that an internet comments argument with strangers is not going to be sufficient to change any minds. If we were all friends, and frequently spent time discussing things in person, and trusted each other, then sure, maybe we could make some progress. But we're not, and we don't. ¯(ツ)/¯
It’s not clear what exactly you’re accusing me of. Mindlessly parroting other peoples’ views?
Sort of? See the definition of talking points. Not necessarily mindless, but certainly low-effort and static. Like, I've seen all of them before. Literally every single anti-gun talking point. They didn't get me to change my mind the first dozen times, so why would they now? They simply do not address the reasons that I am in favor of a well-armed society. As an anarchist, I care about how power is allocated. I want power to be widely distributed, not concentrated. And guns are tools of power.
If what I said is so weak and easily refuted it’s a little strange that the best rebuttal you can come up with is “you’re wrong”.
I didn't say that they were easily refuted. Just as I don't find the talking points convincing, I don't expect you to find the usual responses to them convincing either. We'd just get bogged down in side arguments. However, I also wasn't inclined to concede the point. Which leaves us at "you're wrong".
Why do you think you know what I’m concerned about?
Because you said it yourself? You likened planning for fascist violence to planning for the rapture.
I could be far left,
I could be far right,
You're not. I'm certain enough of it to bet money. Unless this has all been a very weird acting exercise.
none of that would have any bearing on something that comes down to the question of “is this an effective tool for the task”.
It does, though. Your worldview affects your perception of the problem, and your perception of the potential tools for dealing with it. It affects what you pay attention to, what you learn, and what you dismiss. We disagree both on the level of severity and on the effectiveness of each tool, due to our differences in worldview.
I’m a Utilitiarian
I'm not really talking about utilitarianism vs egoism or whatever else, though that could play a small part. I'm more referring to the totality of our worldviews, our mental models of how everything works.
Y'all have it rough. When this happens to me, it's pretty much always:
- I have a dream that there's a spider in my bed
- I startle awake, and see that there is a spider in my bed
- I stare at the spider until it fades out of existence
Shameless (but relevant) plug, I made a community for cataloging topic/location-specific instances:
Hey now, anarchists don't deserve this slander. Moderation typically falls under freedom of association/disassociation, which we're strongly in favor of. The people you have a problem with are the ones that think you should be forced to listen to them, which is pretty contrary to the anarchist ethos.
Alright, I'm down for a bit of meta discussion.
I have very little patience for online debate at this stage of my life. It's not sufficient to really change the minds of people who have an established position, generally speaking. Unless I find the discussion inherently enjoyable, or I feel that I can sway some undecided people, I tend to just peace out. Not worth my time.
My goal here was to plug /m/LiberalGunOwners, in response to someone worrying about fascism and mentioning guns. Mainly trying to find "my people" and get them organized after the Great Reddit Diaspora.
In this context, you and weirdwallace75 come in with the talking points. Yes, talking points. They're flawed, they're patronizing, they're uncompelling, and I've heard them many, many times before. They really are irrelevant to my concerns. "What about this fascist movement" is not addressed by "but you might hurt yourself".
Once you did address my concern, it just revealed what I'm referring to as the "liberal vs leftist" divide. This divide reflects a difference in worldview. If you had my worldview, you'd be an anarchist. As a (presumably) liberal, you're relatively less concerned about fascist movements, and your prescription for dealing with them is going to rely (relatively) more on institutions and less on direct action.
There isn't really anything to be done about this divide. We're just going to disagree.
There's also silverbugs:
Rather than get locked in a "someone is wrong on the internet" cycle, let's put a pin in this. We've both read each others points, and found them unconvincing. Whatever audience we might hope to sway has thinned out. On reddit I would have just silently walked away at this point, but the threadiverse is small and we're likely to encounter each other again.
I'm guessing that our disagreement just comes down to a liberal vs leftist divide, and possibly also American vs European. We're not likely to bridge those as random internet commenters. So, TTFN.
Also wrong, and not really relevant to my point? I'm not talking about the value proposition of having a gun for dealing with run of the mill crime.
We're (Americans) in a situation where we're faced with an active and armed fascist movement, and those who would oppose that movement have systematically disarmed themselves because "guns bad". What's your plan for when they decide to remind us that "political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"?
Don't bother consulting your canned talking points, you actually have to think about this one for yourself.
Yep, I've got a pinned post up, listing the instances that were in that thread, along with some others that I was aware of:
https://kbin.social/m/specializedinstances/t/186667/Big-list-of-specialized-instances
If you come across other specialized instances, just make a post about it and I'll add them to the big list.
So, all of this is wrong, but also beside the point. The main point of arming up is so that we don't all get murdered by fascists. I don't mean that in the sense that fascists will take over the government, and then use the state apparatus to exterminate us. The murdering happens before and during their seizure of political power.
Inspired by this thread, I made a community for cataloging specialized instances:
I'm genuinely uncertain what your actual position is here, but yes, liberals and leftists do need to arm up. /m/LiberalGunOwners seems relevant here.
Yeah, I was wondering if they were a bot or something at first. I guess they're just making sure their interests are covered. ¯(ツ)/¯
There's also Community Discoveries:
It'd be another method to drive traffic to their websites and gain more ad revenue. Same as maintaining a presence on twitter or facebook, or providing an RSS feed.
There are valid reasons to be for the merger, and valid reasons to be against it. However, the argument has been posted quite visibly for anyone that cares about it, and the appeal has been made to the lemmy.world admin. The admin will decide what to do, and that should be the end of it.
What we really do not need is a swarm of cranks coming out of the woodwork to Correct The Record™ every time someone makes mention of the event without putting the "proper" spin on it. It is not some grave injustice. If you don't like the outcome, then join one of the other existing android communities instead of participating in the merger. Or create your own, so that you can run it how you want. And then get on with your life.
No thanks, I'm allergic to filter bubbles. Instead of shitting up every thread and telling people to put in nose plugs, perhaps you could stop being an "ethics in game journalism"-style crank?
We'll be just fine without your hot take in every thread.
Alright, I've hit my limit for dealing with bad faith argument. Maybe you were genuinely trying to be decent, but in any case I'm done.