Andy @ andrewrgross @slrpnk.net

Posts

41

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1,072

Joined

2 yr. ago

Yeah... This isn't much of a mystery.

Oof.

I'll say it over and over: the far right has gotten its shit together and is rising. Corporate neoliberalism is not offering solutions. An organized, populist left is the only solution that is going to push back the tide of fascism, and Biden and the DNC are not equipped to foster this. We have to do it ourselves.

I think this is taking us way off topic, but I'll answer.

First, I think you're making a key logical misstep. This isn't actually relevant, but it's bugging me:

If antisemitism existed prior to Israel, than Israel cannot be responsible for its invention. Logically sound.

If antisemitism existed prior to Israel, than Israel cannot be responsible for its rise. Logically unsound.

This is separate from the fact that I don't actually think Israeli policy fosters antisemitism. My working theory is that most antisemitism exists for other awful reasons, but is held at bay by the high cultural standing of Jews, the strength of our social ties to allies, and the protections afforded to us by democratic, multi ethnic societies. Israel's actions damage all three, which erode the foundations of our defenses.

Second: The story of Esther; The story of Hanukkah; the destruction of the first temple; the destruction of the second temple. And on and on and on.

Like... I'm sorry but what? Did you think we were just having a good time for thousands of years and then people started persecuting Jews in the common era? That makes no sense dude. What does your Sedar look like?

Can you just summarize?

If you think someone is making light of a serious situation and you want people to know that, I think you should say it in words. Speaking for myself, I'm not making light of anything, and that characterization seemed respectful. I'm not sure what part you read as glib or jokey, and your response when asked to clarify seems needlessly cryptic.

Thank you for sharing those links. I'm already all up in that, but I hope others will join their mailing lists and participate in their actions.

The reason it exists is it is fed by a stream (deep-rooted cultural antisemitist sentiment as a cultural practice that uses desire to scapegoat, etc).

Wait, what part of this seems flippant? That seems to me like a succinct and accurate characterization of the enduring presence of antisemitism since antiquity. I don't see anything dismissive about this.

If the present rise in antisemitism is rooted in Israeli governmental policy, then before there was an Israeli government, by that logic there should be no cause for antisemitism.

I'm not sure if I should take these seriously. I don't think observing that Israeli policy has implications for how people view and behave towards Jews suggests that antisemitism was created several years after the Holocaust happened.

Would the inverse be true? Does the existence of antisemitism in prechristian times suggest that the blood libel conspiracies couldn't have any influence on antisemitism in medieval Europe?

I want to point out for context that in 2019, the American Jewish Electorate survey found that a quarter of American Jews considered Israel to be an apartheid state, and 22% of American Jews thought that the treatment of Palestinians constituted a genocide. That was where American Jews were half a decade ago.

That should have been a huge canary in the coal mine. When the survey results came out, the established Zionist institutions insisted it was some sort of error in the way the data was collected. What that was telling us is now clear: the Likud party's leadership was able to maintain support among political leaders, but they'd already overdrawn our store of goodwill YEARS ago. Oct. 7 just brought this all back into the news, and now we're dealing with a loss of reputation that had been building slowly for years.

That doesn't account for the rise in antisemitism we've seen in the last four months, but I think it contributes heavily to the loss of allies who previously served as a crucial bulwark against antisemitism.

This is a very serious problem. However addressing it requires context that I don't think the article provides.

First, this study was conducted by the Community Security Trust, and you can find the full report here. It's worth reading.

Thankfully, if you check page 23 we can see that murder or extreme violence were at zero. Less fortunately, they count 266 assaults and 305 threats. The vast majority of incidents -- over 4,000 -- are speech.

The Haaretz takes great pains to insist that the rise in antisemitism occurred in the week after Hamas' Oct. 7 attack but before the Israeli counter attack. I think the case they make is very thin, since I suspect the window of time is too small for reliable statistics, and this kind of attribution is notoriously subjective. Regardless, it strikes me as an attempt to dispel the obvious fact that Israeli policy fuels antisemitism around the world. To pretend otherwise is absurd.

Overall, I find it enormously frustrating as a Jewish father that many of my Zionist friends appear unwilling to reconcile the fact that for better or worse, combating antisemitism cannot be pursued while simultaneously deligitimizing criticism of Israeli crimes against humanity as pure hate speech. Additionally, we cannot operate from a starting assumption in which we believe we're entitled to and capable of achieving widespread public goodwill irrespective of the actions of Israeli leadership, the Israeli military, and western allies. That's not something that is possible.

Is it fair that all Jews must bear this burden? As an anti-zionist Jew, I get to be the first to say, "No, it's absolutely fucking not fair that I have to deal with this." And I also get to be the first to say to Zionists, "If you think it's unfair, that do something about it: stop conflating Zionism with Judaism and then complaining when gentiles get confused. Stand up against war crimes when they are perpetrated by people insisting that they speak on behalf of Jews."

I have this issue with friends. Frankly, we shouldn't need to be threatened to speak up against atrocities. But with our own safety jeopardized as well, what the hell reason is there for us to run defense for fascists like Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Smotrich? Let's protect Muslims AND ourselves by making clear: they don't speak for us.

Absent that, it's hard to take concerns about antisemitism from people who won't do that seriously. If you cared, you join me in trying to actually do the obvious first step to improve this terrible situations for world Jews.

That sounds very reasonable.

What I'm talking about specifically is NY v. Bruen. The supreme Court ruled that states can't pass gun restrictions that aren't reflective of historical tradition.

As you can imagine, that makes drafting gun restrictions that are permitted under this reading of the construction nearly impossible.

This kind of ban on 3d printers is an terrible but not unsurprising consequence of this really batshit ruling.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/supreme-court-ruling-creates-turmoil-over-gun-laws-in-lower-courts

I see this stuff all the time, and I still don't quite know what to say.

I grew up on the same taking points as you. I'm aware of the failing of the Muslim leaders.

Take a big step back. Antisemitism is skyrocketing. Children who grew up in a concentration camp and losing limbs and whole families in death from above. Over a thousand Israelis are dead. Something like 50 thousand Palestinians are dead or maimed, and millions could die of deliberate starvation. Concertgoers raped, elderly kibbutniks held hostage for months while Israeli radicals prevent the merger food and medicine allowed by the government to pass on that would feed hostages and children.

So much has gone terribly wrong. Families in the West Bank are experiencing pogroms inflicted by the grandchildren of the victims of identical pogroms in Europe and Russia. Jewish Israeli hostages have been executed by the IDF. A Jewish Israeli civilian who killed two gunmen on a rampage in Jerusalem is executed by Israeli police. Journalists and their families -- Palestinian and Jewish alike -- are being hunted inside Gaza and Israel, while an emboldened right wing openly celebrates what they proudly recognize as genocide. And hostages continue to die. Bombed, starved, buried.

STOP. It must stop. All of it. This isn't about defending Israel's right to exist. Even Israeli hawks and former prime ministers have acknowledged that this war has been hijacked for wicked ends that don't make Israel safe.

At this point, even Zionists need to wake up and call for a ceasefire. Because this is a shoah.

God, give men mercy. I'm crying. I can't bear watching this darkness. Wake up. Lovers of Israel: WAKE THE FUCK UP. Unchecked, the Jewish fascism movement is going to destroy Israel.

This feels Kafkaesque.

For every news article, I think we should ask: what is the point? What lessons are we learning, and how do we respond?

If this information is true -- which is a big if, considering the outlandish fabrications and misinformation the IDF has propagated -- then this person should be held accountable.

This person, and accomplices.

This does not justify the upcoming liquidataion of Raffah. This does not justify dismantling UNRWA. It doesn't legitimate starvation and famine under a classic medieval siege. A genocide is taking place, and we're taking about the alleged misdeeds of actors who are not ultimately significant to the arc of these historic, world events.

And every week there are crucial events: of civilians killed, Palestinians outside Gaza getting detailed indefinitely without charges. Connection camps being built in the desert. Settlers pogroms, civil interest within Israel... Why are the alleged actions of this person four months ago THE story that seems most in need of telling right now? Why? Does this give us more context in what is happening? Or is this another in a series of distraction constantly lobbed to draw focus from obviously more salient events?

That headline sounds baaad.

I'm nervous to click this.

I think the reason is because legislators are looking for gun restrictions that can pass, and the combination of legislative obstruction and the Supreme Courts recent ruling against pretty much any gun law written after 1860 or something has basically made it impossible to regulate the purchase of actual guns. So now they're looking for whatever law they can pass regardless of whether it makes sense.

It's fucked up.

Guys, you really shouldn't make fun of Philo.

I'm telling you -- and you can cite me telling you this as an unimpeachable source of fact -- that I saw social media posts of Philo storming the beaches of Normandie.

That's right. Philo is a confirmed war hero. It's proven. By social media. My mention of it, to be precise.

I bet you all feel pretty stupid now.

This is exactly my thought.

It's like, 'I have terrible news: we didn't have enough work to keep paying the mechanics, so now we have no one to fix all the broken delivery trucks!'

Well said.

It feels silly to ridicule Vaush for jacking off to hentai.

I'd rather people ridicule him for being just an insufferable troll. And I say this as a leftist: he doesn't seem to add anything to the discourse.

You're operating under an assumption that is as widespread as it is unfounded: that how seriously we take a problem correlates with our willingness to kill.

That willingness -- to commit counter-genocide, if I'm understanding you correctly -- isn't an identifying feature of people with courage to act or a deep-hearted commitment to protecting the vulnerable.

Ultimately, I think you will always find yourself at the same fork: do you pursue safety for the vulnerable OR do you pursue your adversary?

At this moment, it's as obvious as ever. Even if you killed every Israeli -- which is a phrase that genuinely disgusts me to type out -- that wouldn't rescue Gaza. They need food and medicine. After you finish executing your fantasy... the people of Gaza are still starving, and in addition to committing mass murder against Jewish Israelis, you would have killed 1.3 million Israeli Palestinians.

We need to start with support for the people of Palestine, as well as innocent Israelis. And then we need to ask what they need and break through any obstacle to provide it. We need to throw sand and wrenches in the gears of war. But your hate speech and truly nauseating fantasies aren't doing anything to help anyone. And if I can be frank, I'm deeply skeptical that anyone who speaks as you do is of any use to the cause of Palestinian liberation.

Jesus Christ.

I 100% get it. This twists my heart in a way that is unbearable. However we cannot flirt with the siren song of vengeance. It's a poisoned impulse. That whisper calling to dehumanize those who dehumanize is a devil that plays all sides, and when we listen to it it takes us away from the mission to protect life.

We need to save the children of Palestine. We need to bring PEACE and SECURITY to Gaza. Wishing for genocide against Israel is not only unproductive, it's deeply counterproductive and wrong. Channel your anger towards love of the vulnerable, NOT hate.