abraxas @ abraxas @lemmy.ml

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387

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2 yr. ago

Funny how you don’t have a real rebuttal so you’ve resorted to childish drawings of pig shit

"Funny how you don’t have a real rebuttal so you’ve resorted to childish drawings of pig shit"

You realize, to the rest of us, the far-right "do the research" bullshit is actually worse and more childish than actual drawings of pig shit, right?

Honestly, as the idiot who did give you a real rebuttal, I think he was the smart one to send you the pig shit picture.

Your argument literally included "having to wear a mask that gets my face a little sweaty" as fascism, and "eye strain" as a response to mass deaths.

The right to infect and kill my neighbors so we don't have to get our cheeks a little sweaty from a mask. Obviously.

And how many more committed suicide during lock downs?

Suicide rates go down during national emergencies. COVID-19 was no exception. Certain categories increased, but overall suicide rates went down due to COVID, not up.

How many children’s learning was negatively affect by distance learning? How many developed eye-strain staring at screens all day?

You're right. Eye strain is definitely more important than millions of deaths.

How many who were going to die anyways had to die alone cuz of social distancing? And

This was the proper response by hospitals using their expertise, not something Biden demanded. Now you're literally complaining about the effect of a global pandemic, not a country's response to it.

And you can look up for yourself the developmental issues masking had on children, who rely on facial recognition to learn how to function in the world and communicate with others.

Sure, and also the children of mothers who caught COVID. When schools reopened, COVID spread like wildfire and caused just as many educational and developmental delays as entire classes were stuck at home sick. Consistently, your replies are acting like everything this pandemic did can be laid at the feet of the government that tried to respond to it, as if "no response" would mean nobody would have gotten sick, that the medical establishments (that supported government response) would have done things more to your liking.

I want to make crystal clear, COVID terrified the experts worse than it terrified the government. Those of us with advanced warning had stocked pantries before the lockdown was even someone's bright idea.

And all those who died of covid were likely going to die of covid no matter what because they had comorbities, were elderly, or were obese and no amount of masking, vaxxing, or distancing was going to stop it because none of those things have been shown to stop the spread of the virus anyways.

This is filled with lies. You realize "obese" starts at a few pounds overweight, and obese people don't deserve to die either.

And you say masks weren't effective? Studies showed community mask usage caused a 70% drop in spread.. And that's just paper/cloth masks, the weakest mask you can get. If we had enough N95's for everyone and people didn't throw fucking "let's spread COVID parties" (yes, they actually fucking did), then the death toll would have been far lower. No, YOU wearing a mask isn't going to stop YOU from getting COVID. Everyone around you wearing a mask is going to stop you from getting COVID. If you don't think that's a good reason to wear a mask, you're a selfish prick.

vaxxing, or distancing was going to stop it because none of those things have been shown to stop the spread of the virus anyways.

Natural immunity didn't happen; by the 6 month mark most COVID patients have little protection against reinfection. Terrifyingly, people are just not keeping immunity to COVID. SOMETHING stopped the spread of the virus. And it wasn't something natural. Had no action been taken, COVID would have as many cases and casualties now as it did in 2020. Vaccines pushed the immunity rate to the magic 97% mark, where "herd immunity" starts to overcome the spread rate. Of course, now that people aren't getting boosters, the spread rate is going up. Luckily the new mutations don't spread as well as the original.

Its clear you’ve spent the last 3 years with your head buried in the sand

Would you have the balls to tell that to specialists who specialize in pandemic response? Prove you're not a troll, and admit that if the supermajority of actual experts disagree with you, maybe you're the one in the wrong.

COVID-19 had the 5th worst death toll of any pandemic in human history, and is in the top 10 of global population lost. And that was with modern medicine and (with some Republican political exceptions) reasonably aggressive global response.

COVID-19 was bad, worse than most people seem to remember. I've got a pandemic-trained MCE expert in my family. Everyone saw it coming when they saw the numbers, and it happened worse than expected. Hospitals overflowing capacity from just critical cases. Tent hospitals being built. They fucking activated the mass-grave contracts to store the bodies. For the first time in nearly a century. Bet you didn't know that. OEMS doesn't publish actions like that because they don't want to cause further panic. It comes through a private email to paramedics (and, fwiw I thought this part silly, sent under a pseudonym that only people in the field would recognize)

For the record (not that I think you actually care about facts, but I'm putting this up there for neutral observers), the deadliness of a pandemic is not primarily driven by its death rate. Only an ignorant person would look to that first. A virus with a 0.1% death rate could end humankind. Many viruses with high death rates have less of an impact. Potentially more important factors are the spread rate (influenced by the incubation rate and contagiousness window), and immunity rates (both inherent immunity and acquired immunity). That COVID-19 was a COVID family of illness (cold family, no known cures, treatments, or immunization paths) made it worse.

Yeah, but Biden doesn't agree with literally every single view I have on everything, so they're both the same.

I swear, the new Communist push is just an alt-right front to get Tea Party Republicans in office again. Every time someone points out a random conservative or warhawk thing Biden did and says he's literally worse than Trump, I die inside.

If Trump somehow manages to win 2024 from jail, it's our fault on the Left that he wins.

I'm a Social Democrat, who used to be a Democratic Socialist. The Right sees me as a Communist and McCarthyism kicks in. Did you hear about the "Physical Removal" movement? A meme-like movement about giving the Left helicopter rides to the middle of the ocean. I lived in a farm town where 40% of the voters were overcompensating for the Right not being able to win a rural area by being very outspoken anti-left.

And then, the Left. When I considered myself to be a demsoc, I tried to hang out in LSC on reddit. Not sure if you know it, but they eventually got banned for all the death threats coming out of there. There is an attitude around some percent of Communists that non-Communist lives don't matter. They might be a minority, but they're outspoken.

That was what got me to realize the flaw in being a demsoc, and I shifted laterally (NOT to the Right as several people like to pretend) to Social Democrat. Then I got more death threats because Communists have a hard-on of insisting Socdems are literally the same category as fascists.

I DO think it's weird that I've gotten and get death threats over my views, and I understand why so many people my age have given up having any views at all and just become "I just vote a party and go about my day" folks that are part of the problem.

And yet nobody minds the aggression of capitalism and the right on anybody other than well off cishet white men 🤔

Really? NOBODY minds that? I can't be pro-LGBTQIA without believing that any possible system except strict communism will work? You're talking black & white thinking, the same as the anti-LGBTQ extremists. There are miles of Left, even far left, that aren't Authoritarian Communism (that isn't authoritarianism but does involve Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the exertion of authority. I was fucking THERE, marching there, when they legalized gay marriage in my state, one of the first in my country. I had a good friend be in the first 50 gay marriages in my state. Does it not count if I'm not a Tankie? All my friends who were out there risking their safety against the Catholic alt-right violence in my state didn't count?

Look, you touched a nerve here, and I'm trying to take a breath. Maybe I misread you. Are you genuinely trying to say that you can't oppose far-right violence without being a Communist? Or (perhaps just as bad) are you trying to say that if I'm not ok with violence against queer and transgender individuals that I need to be ok with violence against all liberals?

And I'd like to quantify that I got hit this morning with a dozen replies putting me in the "liberal them" pile, basically agreeing that if I don't strongly support violence against the non-Communist supermajority, I'm a liberal and have no right to call myself a leftist. I hate the tearing down of the pacifist Left I keep seeing.

How many leftists do you have to execute to earn your colors?

How many leftists do you have to execute to earn your colors?

And I bet you're fun at parties. Please oh great psychic, tell me more about myself?

And actually, I do know the difference between demsoc and socdem. The formal definition for Social Democrat is "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means." That we are constantly painted as "filthy liberal" for wanting to respect the will of the majority is a disappointing and disgusting lie. And the ONLY people who accuse socdems of being fake leftists? TANKIES. Who are not, by any meaningful definition, more left than those of us with a soul.

The only way I'm not a leftist is if your version of leftism says "fuck people, freedom, or democracy". In **your ** version of leftism, are you ok with being the 1% ruling by force against 99% who hate you? Think very carefully before replying to that.

Which "silent downvote" are you talking about?

And how exactly did you conclude I'm a "weird person" in this scenario? Obviously I'm arguing with weirder people, we're talking about tankies.

EDIT: Just looked through your post history and cannot seem to find any I downvoted.

One of the problems with arguing with people online is I tend to assume people are arguing in good faith.

One of the things that stop me from arguing with people online is when they accuse me of arguing in bad faith because I have facts they don't like. From such no-name sites as Harvard.

EDIT: For future reference (and 2 points):

1. Front page is a popularity contest, and does not bear any weight to the truth of a matter, or even expert consensus of that matter.
2. Front page can differ between people in search engines, and these results came from the front page on mine.

So in summary, the only reply that would not have been "bad faith" in your eyes would be to concede the argument. So you got it. Congrats, you were right about every opinion you've ever had in your life.

My problem is with people who exploit the labor of others for profit. No billionaire earns that last zero without causing harm

I'm mostly on board with you. But I'd like to cite "Notch" (of Minecraft) as an example of someone who earns the last zero without causing harm. Pure fucking luck? Sure. Should be part of a society that will redistribute his wealth? Definitely. Perpetuating violence for profit? I dunno what he's doing now, but he wasn't when he got that billion.

The thing is, you can’t participate in capitalism without either extreme ignorance or at least a little complacency towards that violence.

As a demsoc, my whole position is described by stopping the violence from within. There are parts of capitalism that are palatable, though it will inevitably end up in a horrible state if left to stagnate. But if I had to choose between universal healthcare and welfare for all and a violent revolution that fewer than 10% of people actually want, I think the former is a better option. And despite me having a lot of the same goals as the groups seeking that revolution, they still terrify me.

You exist in this system, you’re a part of it. You’re either ok with others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate in your breakfast croissant, or you aren’t.

Please understand that this terrifies me. The black & white no-middle-ground thinking is the foundation of so many atrocities. That idea that you cannot improve capitalism, or that a "better capitalism" is still identical to "others doing violence on your behalf so you can have a bit of chocolate" is the kind of madness that leads to authoritarian regimes. I'm against capitalism in general. I'm also against a smallish number of people with guns replacing capitalism with something else.

I don’t see a peaceful remedy to this problem.

Can you acknowledge that a state that over 90% of humans would be happy with is still within "the problem" for you? If not, please understand that THIS is why most people incorrectly batch Communism with Fascism. If so, please understand why you having a problem is the problem and you need to learn to differentiate between the Bidens and the Trumps. Biden is "the other side". Trump is satan.

We can talk about theory, about “yeah just organize and vote” until we’re blue in the face but the reality is that system is actively rigged against us.

Let me be clear about this. I'm part of the same category batched as "progressives and leftists". WE represent about 9% of the population in my home country. That part is unfortunately Democracy working as designed. Not rigged. WE should represent a larger percent of the population, but unlike Billionaires and Church Leaders, we can't seem to find common ground between Far Left V1 and Far Left V2.

But you're right. With less than 6% of people in your country supporting your particular views, voting is not the answer. But, IMO, neither is violence. If 6% of the country manages a coup, I will not be happy no matter how much of their views I agree with. Because that's an authoritarian regime.

We are actively rocketing towards a very bleak future and every passing day without cataclysmic change only pushes it down the line. And every day we push it back, it increases in magnitude.

Everything you say here I agree with. But if we can't get the support for "very bleak future" under 90%, then you've failed even if you temporarily succeed.

So frankly, if someone is going to commit violence on my behalf, I’d rather it be directed at the problem than directed at my peers in the working class, wherever they may be.

My wife's best friend is Petite Bourgeoisie, she owns a breakfast diner near the local project. She makes less than her workers in all but the most perfect months. I have no problem with her. I have problem with anyone who will make her choose between surrendering her freedom not to answer to an ownership structure (even a communal ownership structure), or "going up against the wall". Ironically, it is the part of me most sympathetic to the goals of communism that support her attempted independence from private ownership. I have, on many occasions, been told she would be in line for death or disenfranchisement. Do you understand my reservations? I PREFER an imperfect capitalism if that is the only alternative. And you might not have meant it, but you came across as saying that's the only alternative, and by way of violence.

Well, i can’t speak to your experience but I’m a commie who doesn’t dig a forced central planning authority. Or death threats even!

Well that's a breath of fresh air. That's very different from what I've seen. I do have to point out what I said elsewhere, that I feel Communists have a responsibility to speak against violent communism, the same way "good cops" can only be good if they speak out against bad cops. (I know how most Communists feel about police, but at least I hope you can appreciate the intent of the parallel)

For my part i get called a “traitor” and such by libs often, simply for criticizing the DNC et al.

I think using the word "traitor" in a situation like that is terrible. I do take it personally if someone treats the DNC as "just as bad as Trump" after he managed to cause an unprecedented amount of devastation between his immigration policies, "pay me" COVID handling, and open hatred of marginalized groups and "great people on both sides" support for groups like the KKK... But as much as I am disappointed when people put even a moderate like Biden in the same boat as him, I wouldn't use the word "traitor".

But your point stands, no death threats.

I would love if I met more Communists who are more willing to have constructive conversation with the other Leftist groups, instead of the ones that group all of us in a wide-net neoliberal basket that includes everyone from Bernie Sanders to Adolf Hitler. So, thank you :)

Full disclosure, as a leftist I avoid those far-right areas like the plague. I'm quite certain I would receive more far-right death threats if I did not.

Great! But you have no evidence to support your argument

I cited two pieces of fairly substantive evidence in reply to someone who cited a single article. If you don't think that is reasonable escalation of evidence, we can stop now.

Once again, we know cellphones are detrimental to learning. This is not a matter of schools failing to adapt to new technology

My cited references contradict that. More importantly, your article contradicts the "we know" part. Let me quote your reference: "Research from Sweden, however, suggests little effect of banning mobile phones in high school on student performance. "

My references made clear argument that this is indeed a case of schools failing to adapt to new technology. I even quoted a relevant quote to you.

No it doesn’t. It says that no phones mean better learning. You are missing the forest for the trees.

"My findings suggest an improvement in educational productivity due to the NYCDOE’s ban removal". I understand there's a double-negative in that reference, but the cited study's findings suggest that "yes phones mean better learning". You might disagree with it, but please reread it so that you do not misrepresent it.

Lots of research has been done on this, and a small number of people can influence a large group. Look at “wave” studies for more info.

Sure. Please demonstrate that your claims are correct. Until then, and especially because you seem to have failed to comprehend the involved references, I will wish you luck.

Calling minimum acceptable classroom behavior “picking yourself up by your bootstraps” is absurd. It’s like saying that you can’t expect people to not talk at the theater because that’s just asking too much of people.

I've lived an entire life of watching people blame the bulk of individuals for failures by authorities. I have become reasonably skeptical of any claims that "it's everyone but..." the decision-maker.

This is the real reason. Bernie refused to meaningfully cooperative with the party who basically have a policy of allowing members across the widest political spectrum of any party, and then was shocked that they did completely legal and defensible things that might have affected his odds of winning the Primary, a Primary that was still ultimately decided by vote counts that he lost by a landslide. Nobody alienated Bernie (just look at Warren who writes half the bills he supports), he alienated himself.

Do people know why Bernie caucused with the Democrats? Because only about 9% of Americans identify as far left as progressive, and we only win something if we can compromise it with the only political party that works in good faith.

There's progressives, as well as a good breakdown of demsocs. You can be pleasantly surprised about some parts of Biden's presidency without being a centrist conservative who would have had him near the top of your list

Weird. I haven't heard of that one yet.