WraithGear @ WraithGear @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

Are you talking source as in source code? Or are you talking about source as in the data the llm uses? Because the source code is available. The weights are not the output, they are a function. The LLM response is The output

but the weights can be changed, the input data can be changed. And if they are… it’s still deepseek and if you can change them they are not what makes deepseek; deepseek.

I use boot.dev it has an AI. But they changed the data set to only cover relevant topics, and changed its weights, and gave it tone instruction. And wile it plays a character, it’s still chatgpt.

So i still don’t see your issue with deepseek, because just like an emulator, everything is open source, with the exception of the data. The end result is dependent on the ROM put in to it, you can always make your own ROM, if you had the tools, and the end result followed the expected format. And if the ROM was removed the emulator is still the emulator.

So if deep seek removed its data set, would you then consider deepseek open source?

Source build dependency… so you don’t have a problem with the LLM at all! You have a problem with the data collection process or the pre-training! So an emulator can’t be open source if the methodology on how the developers discovered how to read Nintendo ROM’s was not disclosed? Or which games were dissected in order to reverse engineer that info? I don’t consider that a prerequisite to say an emulator is open

So if i say… remove the data set from deepseek what remains would be considered open source by you?

Would it? Not sure how that would be a better analogy. The argument is that it’s nearly all open… but it still does not count because the data set before it’s manipulated by the LLM (in my analogy the data set the emulator is using would be a Nintendo ROM) is not open. A data set that if provided would be so massive, it would render the point of tokenization pointless and be completely unusable by literally ANYONE without multiple data centers redlining for WEEKS. Under that standard of scrutiny not only could there never be an LLM that would qualify, but projects that are considered open source would not be. Thus making the distinction meaningless.

An emulator without a ROM mounted is still an emulator, even if not usable.

Oh well, OP, stop that. The servers are in China, so like, of course? I am using OLLAMA and 12 GB version of the open source LLM. And it all seems ok upon first glance.

I mean, this does not help me understand.

So its not how it tokenized the data you are looking for, it’s not how the weights are applied you want, and it’s not how it functions to structure the output you want because these are all open… it’s the entirety of the bulk unfiltered data you want. Of which deepseek was provided from other ai projects for initial training, can be changed to fit user needs, and doesnt touch on at all how this LLM is different from other LLM’s? This would be as i understand it… like saying that an open source game emulator can’t be open source because Nintendo games are encapsulated? I don’t consider the training data to be the LLM. I consider the system that manipulated that data to be the LLM. Is that where the difference in opinion is?

So i am leaning as much as i can here, so bear with me. But it accepts tokenized data and structures it via a transformer as a json file or sun such. The weights are a binary file that’s separate and is used to, well, modify the tokenized data to generate outcomes. As long as you used a compatible tokenization structure, and weights structure, you could create a new training set. But that can be done with any LLM. You can’t pull the data from this just as you can’t make wheat from dissecting bread. But they provide the tools to set your own data, and the way the LLM handles that data is novel, due to being hamstrung by US sanctions. A “necessity is the mother of invention” and all that. Running comparable ai’s on inferior hardware and much smaller budget is what makes this one stand out, not the training data.

1. Well that’s the argument.
2. Ai condensing ai is what is talked about here, from my understanding deepseek is two parts and they start with known datasets in use, and the two parts bounce ideas against each other and calculates fitness. So degrading recursive results is being directly tackled here. But training sets are tokenized gathered data. The gathering of data sets is a rights issue, but this is not part of the conversation here.
3. It could be i don’t have a complete concept on what is open source, but from looking into it, all the boxes are checked. The data set is not what is different, it’s just data. Deepseek say its weights are available and open to be changed (https://api-docs.deepseek.com/news/news250120) but the processes that handle that data at unprecedented efficiency us what makes it special

This is not the experience i get on my home hosted version of deepseek 12. I asked it directly about the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, and it was very open that the info was missing, and considering the circumstances, that tracks. What was your prompt and what resource level are you using?

Right. You could train it yourself too. Though its scope would be limited based on capability. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Taking a class? Feed it your text book. Or other available sources, and it can help you on that subject. Just because it’s hard didn’t mean it’s not open

Seems kinda reductive about what makes it different from most other LLM’s. Reading the comments i see the issue is that the training data is why some consider it not open source, but isn’t that just trained from the other AI? It’s not why this AI is special. And the way it uses that data, afaik, is open and editable, and the license to use it is open. Whats the issue here?

I have been bamboozled by fondant on carrot cake at a buffet before. My life was ruined.

So i don’t know if the AI is weighted to suppress truth. From my looking on my local run version 12, it seems to just have a hole surrounding critical events in China. This makes sense if it was trained with data inside the national firewall. When asked about this missing data or when you bring up the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, it will admit that it is ignorant and that it might not be a reliable source for information due to the situation of its creation. And honestly, that frank admission is appreciated.

Oooooohhhhh! You had me going in the first half, not going to lie.

For me i went with WraithGear because i personally feel that i am not here, or real, that i am just piloting my corpse around. It crossed with my thoughts on gaming due to making an xbox account and all, and i have a framed art cell of metal gear acid on my desk, and it all kinda clicked. Its gear as in metal ‘gear’ more so then a cog.

Its a world where the clean up of souls is differed to designated souls who for one reason or another can’t pass on. These souls are given a new body and are assigned to a cell to replace the one who reaped them. They are told a location, a time, and a name. And have to find the person about to die and pull the soul out before they are killed, else the soul brings the trama of death over with them. In the protagonists case she is put in the “freak accident death” group. Which reap people who are indirectly killed by demons mostly. It’s forbidden to reach out to your family for obvious reasons, but due to her mother HATING the word “moist” and considering it a sex slur, she leaves behind a message saying just that and the mother instantly catches on.

Are you a “Dead like me” fan? Its the code word you set up to let your family know your not dead yet.

It took me three hours to decide upon mine, this was back when i needed one for the xbox 360. I literally sat there on the set up screen, and thought. You should see me struggle with character gens.

They are there to interpret the law. The plan isn’t to remove or challenge it, but to change its meaning into however they want. There is no -lawful- means of removing them from power.