WaxedWookie @ WaxedWookie @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

Right? No human could possibly find genocide to be abhorrent - it must be the bots.

You don't understand what a comparison is, do you? If you're comparing 2 things, they're definitionally not the same single thing - I asked for meaningful differences between the two.

If there's no meaningful difference, I think it would be sensible to respond as though they're dealing with the rise of the Nazis.

Some similarities - they're far-right authoritarians that have pivoted their leadership around the creation and subjugation of a ethno-religious "other", while spouting openly genocidal rhetoric, and beginning the early steps of the genocide they've laid the plans for. They're hostile to their neighbours, and will undoubtedly move on to annexing them given the opportunity once the Palestinian annexation is complete.

Some differences would be that Israel is less homophobic than the Nazis were at that point, and that Israel established an apartheid state and (open air) concentration camp as a preparatory step, which the Nazis didn't. Israel also funded Hamas's rise to power over the secular moderates to manufacture pretext, which I didn't see from the Nazis (who had less need, as they were less reliant on external support) - I'd argue all that makes Israel worse on balance.

Feel free to take another run at it if you like.

I'm sure you'd call Hamas's actions a genocide, but based on what definition or metric?

No differences between Israel and the Nazis?

No difference between Israel's self-defence and Hamas's attacks?

I'm inviting you to respond to the topic of the thread you responded to.

So it'll be easy for you to draw meaningful distinctions between current Israel and Novemberpogrome-era Nazi Germany, right?

What definition of genocide are you using? There's no way to credibly dispute the fact that Israel's actions comfortably meet both the UN and dictionary definitions.

Do you have any thoughts on my question about the meaningful differentiation between Novemberpogrome-era Nazi Germany and modern Israel?

TL:DR: Israel isn't defending itself by committing a genocide against a population they've subjugated.

There are a series of issues with this...

• Genocide isn't an act of defence - it's an attempt to completely exterminate a group of people, and is the greatest act of aggression a group could possibly commit.
• The response we're seeing is in no way proportionate, and causing a completely unacceptable level of civilian casualties (10k+ children alone in response to 1,200 total killed according to Israeli counts).
• Israel have killed more Palestinians than the total number of Hamas members in existence with zero indication of progress, and no sign of stopping.
• Israel have maintained Palestine in conditions described by the UN as an open air concentration camp, and have placed severe apartheid restrictions on Palestinians for years.
• Israel have killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas have killed Israelis.
• Israel funded the rise of Hamas (who were no less violent then) over the secular moderates - as confirmed by both IDF leadership at the time she Arafat. I see no reason for them to do this other than to manufacture pretext for the genocide while maintaining US support.
• Palestinians seem to have a lot more to "defend themselves" against - between the numbers killed and displaced and the very restrictive living conditions they're subjected to.
• Israeli leadership have said pretty plainly and repeatedly that they intend to exterminate Palestinians - if all Palestinians were to lay down arms and submit to the apartheid conditions, movement restrictions, and conditions we've seen over the past decade, the well funded nuclear power with modern military simply won't stop.

What makes Israel's actions self-defence while Hamas's lesser actions are not?

Well that... that... that changes everything!

I think they're delusional enough that there's value in giving them the space to lay that delusion out for all to see. They're one of the best arguments against themselves.

Democracy Now have a left-wing bias, but are a factual source. . That said, I'm not here to defend them - nor do I have much interest in this particular article or event.

I was asking about the broader situation, action, policy and rhetoric. My views are based more on the history of the situation, the casualty counts, reporting from the likes of AP and Reuters, UN oversight, and significantly, the words of the Israeli leadership themselves. If nothing else, when a political leader tells you they want to exterminate a group they've been keeping in brutal conditions, then kills tens of thousands of them, I tend to believe them.

I'm not going to call you a genocide denier, but I will ask you - are you denying the genocide, and if so, on what grounds. If you have any thoughts on the differentiation from the Nazis of that era, I'd like to hear those too.

A question for the genocide deniers that'll pop into this thread to spout their monstrous nonsense...

Can you point to a way in which the actions, policies, or rhetoric of the Israeli government meaningfully differs from those of Novemberpogrome-era (Krystalnacht-era) Nazi Germany?

This isn't pointed at any individual, so I'm not even putting you on the spot - this is an opportunity for you to bring your best answers.

Suits me just fine - not a huge shift in the date, and it's something worth celebrating...

While I broadly agree with you, we don't have that third option yet, and electing the less bad option while we build the third option is a necessity.

You don't get to say "Well I don't want any of this - I want better" while checking out of the systems we live within, ceding power to the fascists - you need to be doing everything you can to fight fascism first and foremost while fighting for better.

It isn't easy, but who really thought a fundamental change in the structure and nature of our society would be?

Republicans: Exist

No - I mean actually have him face consequences.

Biden has treated him with kid gloves for multiple reasons - mostly because he doesn't want to be seen as uncivil or disturbing the status quo. There's massive scope to do more without getting into illegal territory.

How fascist does it sound, exactly - please enlighten us.

Of course, if we took Trump's recent insistence that nothing the President does can be seen as illegal, Biden could just send SEAL Team 6 to kill him - but this is the attitude we're defending the democracy against.

What does "unamerican" mean to you?

Trump (like the bulk of the right) believe and act as though laws and norms are used solely to protect yourself and punish those they don't like. Much like the paradox of tolerance, allowing these people to hide behind rules and norms they won't respect themselves isn't healthy for democracy, freedom, or the rule of law - the best way to protect those things is to keep the likes of Trump out of power. You've already seen what he'll do with democracy given half a chance.

What portion of the population do you think finds their job more fulfilling than the specific activities listed - let alone being able to spend your days as you please.

...ohhhh - "We'll make sure you can't afford to do as you please, let alone survive, so you'll have to work, but making sure the workers are responsible for it means we can keep our bullshit and economic vandalism up."

Don't forget that enough people were so impressed with his fuckery that there's a very real danger that he'll be given a second shot at it.

It's all in line with the principle underpinning fascism - rules are useful solely to protect yourself and subjugate those you don't like.

They wouldn't be if you did it a second time...