Democratic strategist calls for ‘new generation of leaders’ as party plots response to Trump’s victory
ToastedPlanet @ ToastedPlanet @lemmy.blahaj.zone Posts 46Comments 1,180Joined 2 yr. ago
ToastedPlanet @ ToastedPlanet @lemmy.blahaj.zone
Posts
46
Comments
1,180
Joined
2 yr. ago
We need people with better ideas. Progressive and socialist ideas specifically.
I'm not thrilled about the 4B movement as it's transphobic, but I support women making decisions for themselves. Ideally this trend in the US will be lgbtq+ aligned.
I would assume lemmy would be supportive of this trend for people in the US in at least broad terms, but I remember the Man v Bear discussion. Bear by the way.
Here's a challenge for anyone reading this, start by empathizing with these women and what they've been going through that would make this a popular trend for them.
Let’s both hope your democratic non-voter buddies are pissed off enough at trump during the next cycle to show up and vote this time, because leftists definitely won’t if the dnc keeps going rightwards; again.
My argument is referring to leftists. They are the non-voters. By definition, a non-voter isn't affiliated with any party.
The DNC will keep shifting right if leftists don't vote for them. A tit-for-tat strategy will keep leftists out of power and Democrats moving to the right until one group changes strategies. The DNC isn't going to systemically change unless it is co-opted by socialists and progressives, but the DNC can change who they cater to. The DNC can start catering to leftists incrementally if leftists start voting for Democrats.
I can understand how daunting of a task it may seem to get your own people to vote from where you’re sitting on a horse so high that you’re unable to understand that you’ve bought into an alienating stereotype of your most needful allies to defeat the trumpers,
Your argument's horse is dead. Your argument's position was shown to be false this election. Leftists didn't vote for Democrats in 2024 and now Democrats are catering to moderates and conservatives who voted. Democrats are not catering to leftists. I recommend you get of your dead horse. Until then we will be ruled by fascists.
but I have faith that Americans will come to see how we keep shooting ourselves in the foot; eventually.
As long as we still have elections, leftists will learn to vote for the most left leaning viable mainstream political party or they will watch fascists kill us all with death camps and climate change. Unfortunately it's not enough for bad things to happen to people to learn their lessons.
I recommend you take the time to understand how the 2024 election disproves your argument's position. No amount of bad election outcomes, death, or destruction of the planet will do that thinking for anyone.
Studies have shown that new evidence that contradicts a person's beliefs is both as painful as physical pain and is not effective at changing a person's position in the short term. People have to take the time to internalize that they were wrong. If we start now people should understand they need to vote for Democrats by the 2026 and 2028 elections.
The Democrats are going to follow the people who vote. They get money from corporate donors to be neoliberals. We need a socialist and progressive movement to co-opt the Democratic party. But in the mean time, as long as we still have elections, we can kick fascists out of power and get the Democrats to cater to leftists incrementally.
This isn't enough to solve climate change or wealth inequality, but until the Democratic party is co-opted the way the Republican party was by MAGA we need to exercise power by voting for the candidates the furthest to the left in elections. Between elections we need grassroots movements to get better candidates.
The party platform shifted to the right in 2024 despite getting progressive votes in 2020. By your hypothesis this shouldn’t have happened. Progressives voted for the DNC in 2020 and yet were abandoned by them in 2024.
This ignores the incremental shift to the left by Biden after the 2020 election which supports my arguments and refutes your argument.
The Democrats won in 2020 when more people voted for them and shifted left.
The Democrats lost in 2024 when fewer people voted for them and shifted right.
That aside your assumptions here are game theoretically false. You cannot get someone to act in your best interest if you promise to support them no matter what they do. It simply doesn’t make sense, as we have seen from how the DNC treated progressives this election.
The 2024 election is the evidence that refutes your argument's position. People didn't vote for Democrats and the Democrats are now looking for moderate and conservatives who voted. It was the people on the left claiming they wouldn't vote so it's reasonable that leftists are making up part of the difference in the popular vote count.
People always act in their self-interest. The goal is to get people to understand that voting for the viable mainstream political party that is the furthest to the left is the most useful strategy to forward their self interest.
The evidence from this election in fact demonstrates my argument to be correct. My argument is that if progressives don't vote they won't be catered to by Democrats. Progressives didn't vote and now they aren't being catered to by Democrats.
The DNC doesn’t follow leftist (or really working class) votes because they’re behold to their corporate donors (and because they’re led by fossils who should’ve retired or died decades ago), not because it’s successful electoral strategy.
While both parities are beholden to the owner class, the corporate donors can only provide money to seek out votes. Democrats still need a voting base to cater to. The votes are still the essential resource to win elections as that is what is counted in an election. We still need to co-opt the Democrats to get a socialist and progressive agenda to get rid of the owner class.
The DNC doesn't seek out leftists because leftists don't vote. The DNC seeks out people who vote.
Doesn’t mean it can’t change now. No, lemme rephrase that: It has to change or y’all are absolutely fucked.
The way we do that is by voting for Democrats and telling other people to vote for Democrats.
Bernie is independent. He’s not a democratic, yet he’s winning elections in Vermont without “splitting the vote”. That’s what I meant by having deposed them.
Exactly. He is an independent who caucuses with the Democrats. He hasn't deposed the Democrats, they are still here, in fact Bernie works with them. The goal is not to get rid of the Democratic Party, but to control it.
For local office, and only two states doing it for state office. This doesn’t mean much for federal office, which is where you will see resistance from the DNC.
My point is that the claim that
DNC will absolutely not, never pass election reform
is demonstrably false. Democrats have passed election reform which means they can pass it again at the federal level. Things that gets done at the federal level can find their root at the state level, such as gay marriage.
Yeah, and they decided that was too much snd tried to go back to the right while thinking they’ll still get progressive votes,
Because people didn't vote for them.
when progressives by your claim were supposed to have leverage.
I do not claim anyone has leverage over political parties via voting. There is no fulcrum on the political spectrum. People who vote have power. People who do vote have given up their power.
Biden also led the US’s support for Israel’s genocide, again when progressives were supposed to have “leverage”.
Biden was following 70 years of US policy. To be clear, Biden is complicit in Israel's genocide of Palestinians. But the idea that a US President would drop a long standing ally is not a serious one. Especially when taking into account that the ally is Israel and Biden is a life long zionist. Biden was undermining negotiations with Israel during the Obama administration.
Biden is not representative of non-zionist Democrats. Unfortunately thanks to the useless strategy of non-voting we are going to see a lot more zionists in power in Congress for at least the next two to years. This will have devastating consequences for Palestine and the Middle East in general.
Also again, there is no leverage. Only political power. There is no fulcrum on the political spectrum. Without something to pivot on there is no leverage. There is no reason why non-voters or third party voters would compulse any mainstream political party to do anything when there are voters that can be targeted.
They’re shifting left one step and back three, as seen by Harris’s support for that idiotic border wall and democrats coopting Republican immigration policies.
The Democrats take one step forward to the left, while the Republicans take three steps back to the right. The Democrats refusal to embrace any populist narrative or any narrative at all means they can never shape the discourse. All they can do is try to comprise on the issues laid out by the Republican's narrative. The Democrats need to be co-opted by a socialist and progressive movement and then be given a populist narrative to win votes.
Progressives (and many other groups) voted for Biden in large numbers for the DNC, and what came out of that was the 2024 shitshow and a lame duck president.
Fewer numbers than in 2020. Biden got 81,283,361 votes in 2020. Kamala only got 75,000,783 votes in 2024.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-elections/president-results
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/president-results
The DNC thinks, only partially correctly, that as long as progressives don’t have a viable third party they’ll be forced to vote blue like it or not
The Democrats look at who votes. Democrats don't think about leftists, because as far as Democrats are concerned people who don't vote don't exist. The Democrats want political power and they are willing to chase voters, not non-voters, to get it.
that as a result the party can shift right as much as it wants.
They don't just think they can shift right, they think they have to shift right in order to win. If leftists can't be asked to vote for Republicans or Democrats then the Democrats thinks they are a lost cause.
You say that voting for them gives you leverage, but what good is leverage that you can’t use?
It is not about leverage. It's about power. Voting gives people power not leverage. If a group votes for a political party then that political party caters to that group. If a group doesn't vote then political parties chase other groups that do vote. Grassroots movements can get better candidates between elections.
This whole idea of leverage has been demonstrated to be false in this election. There is no fulcrum on the political spectrum. Democrats should be clambering to get leftist votes right now according to the hypothesis of leverage, but the evidence shows the opposite, the Democrats are frantically looking for moderate and conservative votes.
Political parties have to be shoved in the desired direction. The way to shove political parties during elections is by voting for them.
The two-party system guarantees a party duopoly, but it doesn’t say anything about which parties become part of that duopoly
Unfortunately the Democrats and Republicans have been entrenched for decades. The first-post-the-post system played out long before we were even alive.
so it’s possible to depose one of the two big parties in a certain election like what Bernie did in Vermont.
Bernie is not deposing the Democratic party, but co-opting it. He caucuses with the Democratic Party. We need to fully co-opt the Democratic party which is what Bernie tried to do in 2016 and 2020. This is what Trump has done to the Republican Party with the MAGA movement.
Now at least for a while you’ll end up splitting the vote,
Until we change the system, third parties will always split the vote. It's a mathematical certainty.
but you’ll need to accept that much if you want to get anything done because the DNC will absolutely not, never pass election reform
There are numerous examples of rank choice voting being implemented in America in blue states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
or shift left.
The Democrats have been incrementally shifting left since Clinton. Biden was our most progressive president since at least Carter by virtue of being the least conservative. Democrat Supreme Court justice nominations and appointments led to gay marriage being legalized.
If people on the left vote for Democrats, the Democrats will shift left. If people on the left spend their time denying themselves their most useful strategy to gain political power during elections, voting for Democrats, then the Democrats will shift right. edit: typo
There can be more than one lesson from an election. Democrats need a populist socialist and progressive narrative. Socialists, progressives, and leftists in general need to push the Democrats to the left by voting for them during elections. Between elections we need grassroots movements to get better candidates.
If leftists cling to accelerationism in 2026 and 2028 we will see the rightward trend of the Democrat party continue. Accelerationism makes it harder to fix things by allowing them to get worse while learning nothing.
Democrats of course because they are the furthest left, by virtue of being the least conservative, viable party we have. They are the only political tool available because of our first-past-the-post system.
Democrats cannot be leveraged by not voting for them. They have to be pushed to the left by voting for them. If they see there is a large block of socialist and progressive voters in the electorate they will move to capture these voters.
Until leftists learn to see their vote as a routine utility based decision they will not have any political power. To not vote is to give up power. Getting better candidates comes from grassroots movements between elections.
If we don't want to live under fascist rule then as long as we still have elections we need to vote for the Democrats. We need to tell people to vote for the Democrats and explain why. If anyone has the energy to argue on the internet then they can argue for the most useful approach we have.
No one thinks the Democrats are a great political party. But voting is the means of liberating ourselves from Republican rule in a two-party system. If people won't vote for Democrats then they will be ruled by fascists.
People will vote in their own self-interest. The amount of energy that goes into trying to make the most useful things people could do during elections, vote for Democrats, seem useless is of course to the benefit of the owner class and Republicans.
The Democrats and Republicans being the only game in town is a consequence of our first-past-the-post voting system. We are stuck with the Dems until we change the system. To refuse to use the Democratic Party, our only to effective political tool, is to refuse to engage meaningfully in politics.
The issue with that is the US's first-past-the-post system which results in our two party system. We need to change the system or else a new party will only act as a spoiler.
The US has more political parties. What we need is a voting system where third parties are not spoiler candidates.
The US' two party system is a result of our first-past-the-post voting system. We need to change the system first or else all leftist third parties will act as spoilers for the Democrats.
Grandpa wants to arrest everyone again!
Yes, and now they are proudly declaring they aren't going to put down the shovel. They want to keep digging this hole we're in.
There is no bottom by the way, they will just keep digging until enough people learn the lessons. If we wait to see how bad it can get it will only get worse.
Also, a great out of context quote that somehow works better out of context at showing how bad these ideas are.
“You’d think the Democrats would do better. I look at it from that perspective and so are we in as deep trouble as we were in 1984, 1988? Probably not. But there are trends like what’s happening among working-class voters of all colours and ethnic groups that are concerning. If they aren’t arrested, they could lead us into the wilderness again.”
The Democratic strategists predictably have both learned nothing from this losing this election and are planning on shifting the party to the right. Accelerationism is useless. There was no leverage over the Democrats, instead they are going to chase after moderates and conservatives who voted. If we are lucky enough to have another election, please vote and encourage other people to vote.
Your argument in the previous post was establishing a false equivalence. An attempt to show a pattern between two dissimilar things. That was the bailey.
With this post you have retreated to the motte, hyperfocusing on another group of arguments to distract from the arguments that refuted your central point.
Because if not you are literally the “so you hate waffles” guy in the post
By obfuscating your position, by pretending you were misunderstood, you were hoping to be unchallenged in a hypothetically more defensible position so you could claim victory.
You conveniently ignore this in order to get some seratonin from writing me paragraphs about “exposing truth”??!!, and that’s super sad. 😔 You could be having fun interesting discussions along the same lines if you hadn’t made it weird. Sorry, man.
As my argument has exposed this deception your argument is now relying on ad hominen attacks. Your playbook lacks the means to interact meaningfully with an argument that engages and refutes both your argument's desired bailey, attacking the word neurotypical because it exposes privilege, and what turned out to be a not so defensible motte, misleading accusations of assumptions and new usages of the word nuance.
Group B identified your argument's desire to undermine the validation people feel from using the word neurodivergent. Your argument's goal was to get people to stop using the word neurodivergent. Your argument's motivation for this is to undermine a mechanism that exposes the privilege that neurotypical people enjoy,
and that’s super embarrassing for you. XD
Your declaration of victory has defeated you.
To clarify when I refer to leftists I mean, from left to right on the political spectrum, anarchists, anarcho-communists, communists, socialists, democratic-socialists, social democrats, and progressives. Of people with these political positions probably democratic-socialists, social democrats, and progressives were among the leftists that voted for Biden in 2020 in the greatest numbers.
Authoritarian communists or tankies are not leftists, but red fascists. They occupy the same position on the political spectrum as fascists and of course didn't vote for Biden. Both red fascism and fascism are the same in that they both build hierarchies and then start killing people at the bottom of those hierarchies. The fascists build racial hierarchies. The red fascists build ideological hierarchies. Neither qualify as leftists because leftists want to deconstruct hierarchies.