ToastedPlanet @ ToastedPlanet @lemmy.blahaj.zone

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2 yr. ago

No, I'm one of the trans people you use in your pursuit of moral victories over the Democrats.

Biden taking credit for the work of rail workers whose right to strike he opposed is rich.

But like he did help them though.

You want solidarity in one direction only. You want the left to worship the Democrats no matter who they throw under the bus.

No, I want people to actually care about minorities instead of virtue signaling. I'm not interested in being currency in your game of moral purity with the Democrats.

You already got your actual victory over the left. You just want critics to shut up about it.

You got your victory over the Democrats at the expense of minorities, but you want 2026 and 2028 too. Well, Republicans might not even give us those elections or an opposition party at all now, we'll find out.

What power? The left, in your estimation, has only the power to lovingly smooch the ass of the center as they move to the right and ONLY the right.

We have the power to stop fascists from taking power, killing people, and destroying the environment. We can even educate people and co-opt the Democratic Party. I recommend you read what I wrote.

THEY. SUPPORTED. GENOCIDE.

Biden supported genocide. Members of his own administration pushed back against him in open letters. You don't care about the Palestinians. Genocide is a word you can type in all caps that you think will win you arguments on the internet. It holds no material implications with you whatsoever or you would be railing against Trump's promise of indefinite genocide.

As someone closer to the chopping block than I would like, I am no longer phased by that bullshit. I've got the right screaming at me that they want me dead, and I've got people like you on the left screaming at me to be silent as they drag me the rest of the way there. The Palestinians are worse off now because of people like you and your virtue signaling and so is everyone else.

Your vote is appreciated. Your rhetoric is not. We don't live in a moral universe. This universe is physics based. You acting in a way that is consistent with your subjective moral values isn't going to help anyone. In fact, it's going to let Republicans and other fascists all over the world run right over the people you claim to care about. Learn to analyze strategies based on their utility. edit: typo

The Democrats are the tool we have at our disposal. I intended to use that tool for as much as it can be used for. Help me.

We do have this power. We elected Joe Biden in 2020. Your argument pretends we don't at the expense of minorities and our ability to prevent the worst outcomes of climate change.

Look, I don’t know if you guys haven’t been paying attention

I've been talking to people about climate change on this site.

(which it really didn’t in the long run did it?)

If we give up before we succeed then that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Democrats are neoliberals. They aren't going to solve our problems. But them being in power will give us the time to educate people and co-opt their party.

I give my argument about what that involves in more detail in this same comment section here: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/11577918

I’m not.

You are. I even gave the receipts. They were different, but people on the left didn't want to hear it.

Democrats are great at promising shit they have no intention of doing and then gleefully announcing that their hands are tied.

That's what a refusal to remove the filibuster and a razor thin majority will do. Manchin and Sinema were devastatingly effective in their obstruction. That's what a systemic issue can do in a nutshell. With the Senate, a tiny minority can overturn the will of the majority. Our refusal to fix it is part of how we got here. And things will continue to get worse if we don't take steps to fix it.

If your arguments actually referenced mine in any meaningful way you would know I have addressed these points in this comment section multiple times. As it stands, a casual refutation of your arguments is now sufficient. edit: typo

Democrats have no concept of solidarity. None.

Democrats have only recently been openly favorable to gay people within the last decade. Minorities have been using the Democrats to shift things to the left in this country for decades before that.

They just haven’t thrown you under the bus yet, but they’ve let you know that they will. Their candidates have been using the Republican “boys in girls’ sports” hatred in their campaign ads.

I'm aware of the messaging. That's still not the same as a ban on gender affirming care, removal of employment protections, and the rounding up of homeless people.

Rail workers

Biden actually helped rail workers. He should have stuck with them from the start and done more, but it's better than nothing.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155763336/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-leave-bernie-sanders-csx

The people who I would have expected solidarity from is the left. But instead I am constantly confronted by people who want moral victory over the Democrats. In this arrangement, I am the ball. Instead of kicking me, how about we leverage power to help people.

Vote for Democrats in elections not because they will fix our problems, stand with us, or even do what we want, but because it is how we demonstrate power to the fascists. It's how we protect the people that Republicans want to harm and kill. It's how we buy time to get a populist movement to co-opt the Democratic Party.

The would in a heartbeat if they thought they could get one Republican vote for doing so.

Again, don't lie. The Democratic Party can of course move that far, but they have yet to do so.

Neoliberals ARE our problem.

Neoliberalism is the problem. Neoliberals can be tomorrow's socialists. But we have to put in the work and educate people. My argument already refuted this point, I recommend reading it.

I read it. Democrats will keep playing the left for fools and moving to the right, no matter what happens.

No Bernie's campaign and Warren's campaign drove Biden to the left on a whole host of issues, including labor unions.

There was no daylight between her and Biden on Netanyahu’s genocide.

Don't lie.

This comment said it best and lists calls for a ceasefire from Harris.

https://lemmy.world/comment/13069715

She’s taken a stance, multiple times. The left doesn’t want to hear it.

March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas

July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315

September - https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/harris-trump-presidential-debate-election-2024/card/harris-calls-for-ceasefire-in-gaza-while-trump-claims-she-hates-israel--isokhfqmy6EgRGrUOSuK

Harris promised to do everything in her power to end the war in Gaza.

“This year has been difficult, given the scale of death and destruction in Gaza and given the civilian casualties and displacement in Lebanon, it is devastating. And as president, I will do everything in my power to end the war in Gaza, to bring home the hostages, end the suffering in Gaza, ensure Israel is secure, and ensure the Palestinian people can realise their right to dignity, freedom, security and self-determination,” Harris said to applause during a rally in East Lansing city of Michigan, home to 200,000 Arab Americans.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/4/harris-says-will-end-gaza-war-in-final-election-appeal-to-arab-americans

Unlike Biden, Harris was not a life long Zionist.

When Joe Biden met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his war cabinet during his visit to Israel, the U.S. president assured them: “I don’t believe you have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I am a Zionist.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/

Harris wasn't perfect. And that was simply not good enough for some people who didn't want to risk their hands getting dirty. Even if it meant the Palestinians becoming the cost of doing business.

I voted for Harris and the election is over. That doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend that she wasn’t as committed to Netanyahu’s genocide as Biden was.

Good for you. I appreciate it. No need to spread propaganda though.

No, I mean populist. Populism is what is popular right now.

https://www.wordnik.com/words/populism

A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.

Why must one of those parties be the Democrats? I don’t see no fucking Whigs around, do you?

Because unlike the Wigs, the Democrats are not divided over slavery. They can just move to the right on contemporary issues as Chris Murphy details here. edit: typo

Democrats won’t reduce any harm.

Hi, I'm a trans person. I'm not the most at risk trans person since I'm pre-transition, but it's definitely a case of they would if they could. I would not like to be murdered in a death camp please. Like if Democrats can't get trans messaging right, because they suck at winning, fine. At least they aren't trying to completely ostracize me from society and make me dig my own grave. I hope that gives a different perspective on this.

Trump tried once and it worked. Neoliberal ideas are entrenched in the minds of Americans. Neoliberalism only allows change to the people in charge of systems as it asserts, incorrectly, that our institutions are flawless. Since neoliberals only consider changing people, it is much easier for a fascist to convince a neoliberal to change the people in society. Where as it is much harder for a progressive or a socialist to convince a neoliberal to enact systemic change or redistribute wealth respectively.

In short, people with neoliberal ideas in their head need to fully internalize neoliberalism as a scam.

Abandoning the Democrats will not result in them being replaced. They will continue to exist by moving further to the right, as Democrats like Chris Murphy have already proposed.

Starting a successful third party is mathematically impossible under a FPTP system. Third party candidates can only be spoiler candidates.

The Democratic Party is the party progressives and socialists are going to want to co-opt with a populist candidate. Like Bernie tried to do and Trump did to the Republicans.

This is the key part I recommend you read.

Also, this is off topic, but Harris did pledge to end the war. It was in the news. She called for a ceasefire at least three times. If you care about the Palestinians, then voting for the party that wants to end the war is more useful than allowing the party that wants Israel to finish the job to take power.

Then the Democratic Party had best make sure that progressives have no reason to split off and form their own party, huh?

The FPTP voting system ensures that they do not have a reason.

Why does it always fall to progressives to get behind Democrats and never the other way around?

The FPTP voting system and entrenchment of neoliberalism in the minds of the American public for over 40 years from both mainstream political parties starting with Reagan. This is may be the case for western countries and democracies more broadly as well. Currently, neoliberal ideas cause a contradiction when a person encounters progressive or socialist ideas. Along the lines of:

Why would we fix our institutions if they are flawless? What's the hurry to solve our problems if we are at the end of history?

Some useful and correct resolutions of these contradictions are:

Our institutions are flawed because they were made by us, flawed humans. The time to advert climate change, fix systemic inequalities, the reduce the wealth gap is now. Incremental changes will run out the clock, as they don't address the root causes. There will be hundreds of millions if not billions of causalities unless these issues are addressed sooner rather than later.

Neoliberal ideas must be pulled from the minds of Americans like a weed. Or like one of those radishes in Super Mario Bros 2. Then people will be able to embrace ideas like systemic change to institutions and wealth redistribution from the rich to everyone else.

When asked about socialism, if a person responds with 'socialism doesn't work' or 'the Soviet Union collapsed' those are the tells that a person needs to full internalize neoliberalism as a scam.

And maybe a history lesson about how the Soviet Union was actually an authoritarian communist dictatorship and not a socialist country. The government owned the means of the production, not the people, and the government wasn't representative of the people.

Oh thank god Democrats don’t throw vulnerable populations under the bus every chance they get.

It's better than the Democrats intentionally murdering people in camps. Neoliberals in office aren't going to solve our problems, but it gives us time to do the work to solve them. Like educating people and co-opting the Democratic Party in one of their primaries. Like Trump did to the Republicans and Bernie tried to do to the Democrats. edit: typo

There already are two. We must co-opt one with a populist candidate. The Republican Party was already hijacked by Trump. That leaves the Democratic Party.

The lives of millions of minorities and the Earth's climate are at stake now. Minorities will notice the difference in the short term, but we will all notice the difference in the long term. Assuming we still have elections and a Democratic Party going forward, yes. We delay fascism and co-opt the Democratic Party. edit: typos

This rhetoric is what is known as accelerationism. It's the idea that things have to get worse in order for them to get better. The United States not existing would mean the collapse of a society that supports about 340 million people. Letting the US burn to the ground is not useful, because it doesn't help any of the people living here.

The truth is that things get better when people learn from their mistakes and the bad things that happen to them. They then use that knowledge to make things better. There's no bottom to how bad things can get. Things can always get worse. And they will get worse unless we work to make them better.

Anyone can be tempted by the idea that they can make things better by letting them burn. But letting everything burn is how to harm the most people possible. In order to help anyone, we need to start leveraging power for each other. That means giving up on moral victories and analyzing strategies using utility instead of moral reasoning. edit: typo

Not believing in climate change does not make someone a fascist

Weirdly, no where in my argument do I claim this. But if a person isn't a fascist or isn't at least brainwashed by their propaganda, why would someone believe climate change is not real? There is a large body of research that demonstrates climate change is real and is caused by humans. Not to mention Exxon knew this as early as 1977.

Murphy was talking about accepting people who don’t want to be aligned with MAGA. That is plainly a strategic imperative.

No he said:

But here’s the thing - then you need to let people into the tent who aren’t 100% on board with us on every social and cultural issue, or issues like guns or climate.

He didn't mention the MAGA movement or how aligned with MAGA a person wants to be in that.

your meter is too sensitive.

The time to advert key tipping points in the Earth's climate is the next five years. Either we advert these tipping points or catastrophic damage will be done to the environment. There's no time to delay. Let alone time to be actively making things worse by increasing fossil fuel emissions as much as possible. Why is your argument's meter not picking this up?

I suspect I would be more hands-off about correcting some harms

Sorry, what harms are those? =/

I would take FDR 2.0 if that’s what can defeat MAGA, but I don’t have confidence that it’s a good approach. I do think the wealth/income gap is a threat to liberty and stability.

Billionaires have formed an oligarchy around Trump who is threatening to deport millions of people, round up homeless people into camps, and be a dictator on day one. This state of affairs is directly derived from late-stage capitalism and the 40 years of neo-liberalism that enabled the rich to extract wealth from everyone else.

People want a populist narrative. We can easily give them that since it's the truth. That's what the Democrats were lacking in their campaign that Trump used to win, a populist narrative. Democrats spent the months between the DNC and election day appealing to moderate Republicans. Their reward was around 10 million fewer votes. Murphy is another Democrat who refuses to listen and is part of the Democrats predictable shift to the right in response to this loss.

There can be more than one lesson to learn from an election. People do need to learn to leverage power and vote for Democrats in elections, but the Democrats need to learn from their mistakes as well. Or at least be co-opted by people who learned the lessons for them.

We’ll spoil that party?

Yes, running third party candidates in a FPTP voting system is how the spoiler effect works.

You want to protect them from being spoiled?

Because of the FPTP voting system our democracy will always trend towards a two-party system. Until we enact systemic change, we will be stuck with the Democrats and the Republicans. As long as the Democrats are further to the left of fascism we should vote for them and avoid limiting our power with third party candidates.

We the people and our interests are what avoiding the spoiler effect protects.

What is it exactly that they’re doing successfully you don’t want to spoil?

The Democrats are neoliberals. They are easier to push on social issues and the environment. The Democratic Party is the party progressives and socialists are going to want to co-opt with a populist candidate. Like Bernie tried to do and Trump did to the Republicans. But more to the point, they do not want to kill minorities and destroy the environment.

Rather than seeking a moral victory over Democrats we should look for ways to leverage power for the people Republicans want to hurt. Doing otherwise makes the harm done to minorities the cost of doing business.

One of the goals of electing Harris was to delay fascism long enough for a populist like Bernie to hijack the Democratic Party and enact a progressive and socialist agenda. It would be a lot easier to run such candidates if Harris was in office than Trump. As it is we are counting on fascist incompetence to give us future elections and enough of a Democratic party left to co-opt.