TheOubliette @ TheOubliette @lemmy.ml

Posts

0

Comments

1,482

Joined

2 yr. ago

The first point - Your previous comments made it seem as though you were saying only people in such position held that opinion. Whether you meant to or not.

I don't think they did. I think you read it into it because you had a defensive response.

[Your story]

Thank you for contributing to and working with your community and thank you for sharing.

Then the genocide started. I have worked with people to design billboards for the issue. I have canvassed for them. I have been generally active, and helpful, as I can. There is an organization here called CAIR, it is national, I assume you know who they are.

Yes of course. It is a weak organization. I was curious to see if they had any recent news and looked at their website. They are hosting a gala in November at which Jamaal Bowman, who voted for the iron dome, will be present. I'm sure he is there because he was targeted due to even just taking a (late) milquetoast stance against Israel and then losing due to AIPAC, having abandoned any grassroots organizer-based strategy. CAIR has been largely excised from my local community because they compromise too heavily in exchange for nothing and are a vehicle for exactly the NGO climber types I've mentioned before. The community watches their people leave and then turn their backs. Of course, they do not say this very publicly, as family is important, but when having individual conversations, so many are happy that their kids are getting paid well but are unhappy that they spend their time with such groups.

I am returning to this point because it is important. These types of organizations are easily coopted and defanged, and they follow a single trajectory given their funding models and staffing methods. They split a community into those in them and those without, and those within them have a different interest and begin to socialize with the insiders. Even an org like CAIR, which is outside the mainstream of political discourse at least half the time, is impacted by this and sets its sights low and uses ineffectual methods of advocacy.

Through this exposure I have been around a number of this community large enough, to be the vast majority, locally, at one time or another. I have sat in meetings and listened to them talking. I have seen where they decide to apply their donated funds to take political action. I have a friend who translates discussions to english for me. There isn’t a huge group that are hard line on the idea of staying out of voting, in the presidential election, totally.

For clarity, you mentioned business cards many times. When you say community, do you mean a wide community of everyday people, or mostly business owners, heads of NGOs, and maybe imams?

A lot of those that are, discuss how white Americans have to participate, and while they will stand out, they urge that, if you are going to vote, vote for Harris.

"A lot" can mean 3 or 7 or 50. There are, of course, some people who advocate for this. But the idea that they are even outnumbered by those opposed it completely alien to my experience and, if you don't believe that to be enough (as you have your own experience), it is also in disagreement with the polls, including those done by CAIR!

The reasons I have been given for this, is simple, while no party is good for them, and the US immigration practices are most often hostile, unlike the people you know, they saw a very noticeable increase of activity from the government, against their community, when Trump put forth his anti-muslim sentiment.

They are currently the worst they have been since 9/11, per the very nice and opinionated uncles my community. It goes in waves.

My cousin’s law firm says they experienced a large spike in cases during that time, as well, particularly ones that the government “lost” (as in it was deemed illegal/unconstitutional, but too late now, and no one was punished).

What does your cousin say about now, the last year? Are you near any college campuses or places where actions take place? The current islamophobia is focused on targeting those who take actions resisting the genocide, generally targeted by Zionists with doxxing and harassment that they leverage into calls for expulsions and deportations. While fascists are often doing this, people that present themselves as liberals also do so.

One of the big, specific, things they discuss is that long term, established, people, in their community, started to be targeted, where as, previously, their was no question about their immigration status, or position as Americans. They saw a lot more prying into who they were related to, arbitrary contact with individuals, etc. They saw a lot more of these people being taken by ICE, and deported.

This did not stop under Biden, in my area. There is still constant fear.

As the situation has gotten more desperate they have been using their local businesses to reach out to non-middle eastern customers, and some have literally been putting pamphlets, explaining the situation, in their bag, as they check them out.

It reeeally sounds like you mostly talk to business owners.

Don’t get me wrong, they don’t like Harris. They see one that is not backing off selling weapons to Israel, and the other is vowing to take an active role in accelerating the genocide

This is foolish, of course, as the Biden-Harris administration is actively doing the genocide and they are extremely competent at ensuring its continuation at full steam. Israel is already doing, more or less, whatever it wants outside of implied restraints on how to attacks Iran. This is why the position you present is a minority position among both Palestinian Americans and the wider muslim community.

so they are either voting the former, or suggesting that other Americans do so, because they are in the extreme of the rock and a hard place analogy. There is no good choice, there is only the possibility of, some level of, harm reduction.

There is a good choice. You vociferously oppose the genocide and have discipline.

Those interested in electoralism often talk about "accountability" and "pushing" for things. This is the chance to test that theory. If a person will still vote for a genocider candidate, what does accountability mean to them? Nothing, of course.

Re: harm reduction, again, this is the administration doing the genocide, supporting it to the hilt. There is no harm reduction here, it is full-steam-ahead genocide. These are bog standard Dem PR talking points, not the common positions of real people affected by this.

There is more, but I have explained enough of my personal life, for you to get the picture.

To be honest I'm not sure why you're sharing so much of your personal life, though it is nice of you to do so. I think it would be good for you to share less information, for your own security.

Proud?

So you’ve stopped paying taxes then? Since “such a system is evil and participation is an endorsement of it”

The MIC is funded through financial magic and imperialism. If tax fraud would oppose them, I would probably do it, but it really does not.

It’s those tax dollars that build bombs for Israel. If you’re paying them, you’re paying for genocide.

The "tax dollars" for the bombs are invented out of thin air. However, the people that make the bombs and deliver the bombs and drop the bombs are doing all of those things and we should organize to stymy those efforts.

Biden-Harris is the "Mega Hitler". It is doing a genocide right now. The party moved right under them.

Sure, but you better make sure that you do it before January 6th, because if Trump wins, it is not going to take very long for Netanyahu to kill every Palestinian in Gaza.

Netanyahu already has unconditional support from the US. You cannot just pretend your way into putting a bigger gun to someone's head. The Biden-Harris regime is genociding Gaza and rather than oppose it, you are defending them.

But I'm sure by then you will have found some way to absolve yourself (either that, or it's literally the outcome you want).

I require no absolution, I work against genocide.

You betray your guilty conscience with your incredibly selective responses, though.

It shifts right under both because the population does not build leverage against either but both Hitlers eschew anything vaguely left.

So, you admit that not voting for Dems you vote Trump

Since I wouldn't vote for Trump, this is obviously not true. But by your logic, since I'm also not voting for GOPers that means I voted for Harris so don't worry.

but you just think that it's no big deal, because last time he failed to break everything he touched?

I see no reason to think Trump was more harmful than Biden-Harris. But at the moment, I'm focused on the normalization of genocide by Democratic voters.

Edit: it's a pity there's no travelling to alternative timelines, I'd really love to see what Trump's victory would lead to, but wouldn't want to live in that reality.

Trump is ahead in many polls. He could win. If he does, how will you feel about selling out Palestinians?

Neither of those genocides and your reference to them cheapens the term and distracts from your actual knowing support for genocide. Instead of reaching for the quick excuse to stop thinking, do some introspection on why you are okay with normalizing genocide.

Out of respect, I would like to venter Palestinians and the genocide they are facing, but I will discuss what you'd like about China and Russia in another thread. Feel free to make one and link it here.

I have already described some of it throughout this thread. One if the things I do is organize with and among Palestinians to engage in actions and organization building.

Your turn.

You should be against genocide

Is that so? What else do you do?

It is possible, but it doesn't happen particularly often. The kind of thinking on display in this thread is defense of a barrier to doing these kinds of actions, from recognizing one's own lack of political education, from developing a concrete notion of leverage or collective action.

When people do hold themselves to those standards but still hold out hope for Dems, they learn some uncomfortable lessons. The first one is that Democrats make you their opponent and gladly lie about you and will even throw their money and influence behind Republicans instead. Something else that people learn (at least when they are honest with themselves) is that they often don't really have a concrete idea of how to make demands or build leverage, and so they will engage in actions and spin their wheels. The ones that are not honest with themselves will still claim a victory. The ones that are honest with themselves will engage in productive criticism and development of their political program.

But this is so many steps past what the people here are doing, relying on tired canards shared as memes. I would rather they at least get to the "try and fail" step of becoming politically educated and a force for humanity, but we are stuck at the "defend everything Dems tell us to do" phase.

The reason why is because asking for a new thread is just you trying to hide.

Through having a discussion in a public forum? Don't be silly.

Odds are no one would see the new thread

You can link it here and they will see it if they are interested. Go ahead. I'm waiting.

and you're also putting the effort onto others knowing that it likely won't be done, so then you can act like you won.

It is unlikely it will be done because you don't really care about the tooic. It is just an excuse to stop thinking about your complicity in genocide.

Do you really think the "gotcha! You don't care about genocide you hypocrite!" line is coming from someone trying to actually engage on the Biden-Harris genocide of Palestine? Because it is obviously about deflection.

You're intentions are crystal clear though and you just look like a fool.

Feel free to make a thread and link it here. Go ahead.

Who said I was supporting the genocide and the defense of it?

Do you not believe that is what you are doing when you try to wield this letter as an identity-based cudgel against people that say you should not vote for someone genociding Palestinians? Please do some introspection if you don't.

I take the same approach as them in the letter.

As who? You broad-brushed them as muslims before. So eager to push back! Have you read the letter yet?

It’s an undeniable genocide and horrific, but the situation is most likely to get better under Harris, not Trump.

The genocide already has unconditional support from the Biden-Harris administration and they are extremely competent at securing support from Europe and, as you can see here, earning your complacency, complacency in those around you, and an explicitly Zionist party.

I think that if Trump were doing this you could be mobilized to actually materially oppose the genocide instead of making excuses for why you will support literal genociders, even going after people that reject genocide with bad faith arguments and racist tokenization.

If agreeing with that letter is weaponizing my identity against solidarity with Palestine

That is, actually, not how you weaponized your identity. Please review what you wrote to me.

what do you think of the letter writers?

I have already answered this question in my criticisms of the letter. If you have read the letter and looked at the signatories, you will find that they correspond to a specific class of people, they have very particular relationships with the party and the wider political apparatus. In short, they are almost entirely the heads of NGOs and party insiders.

This is not a new playbook, Democrats often tokenize identities in this way to have a party-aligned subset of people, people with direct material interests tied to the party and its wider apparatus, sign statements or otherwise present themselves as representing "The [X] community". Imagine how the process for creating this letter and having it signed happened. How they networks were created, why they exist, who is doing the asks, how they organizations are funded, whose connections they rely on for their work, what the career ambitions of young party leadership groups are. And ask why it is almost exclusively this subset of people.

What's racist is calling the group simply Muslim and then taking a tokenizing approach to them.

Maybe you should read the letter they signed before defending support for genocide, and before trying to weaponize your own identity against solidarity with Palestine.

Shameful.

It did answer your question but you clearly don't actually care about the topic. It is just a rhetorical device for you to avoid thinking about your complicity in genocide.

Let me know when you have the courage of your convictions. If it were me, I would be damn sure I knew what I was talking about if there was any risk of me normalizing genocide.

Are you writing this comment while outside actively protesting the genocide?

I do much more than protest.

Cause if not, then you're literally doing nothing to stop this.

I agree that what I am asking people here to do is a very low bar! Just not supporting genocide is very little to ask. It can be accomplished passively. So can you commit to not voting for Harris and to not tell other people to do so?

And no, voting third party might ease your conscience, but it's not actually doing anything for Palestinians.

Voting for an anti-genocide candidate signals being against genocide. It is important to build the power of that group and for Democrats to internalize, to at least some degree, that genocide is unacceptable.

Like... 200+ years of pointlessly voting third party has pretty much proved that.

Is that do? What happened to the Whigs?

But you use words such as "pogroms" and you believe you're right so most likely nothing I say will change your mind.

They are pogroms. Do not out them in quotes unless you are denying that they happen.

But it might sway whoever reads this, so... Here's to hoping your bullshit gets understood as such.

Never again means never again for anyone.

An astonishingly racist question.

If you would like to decenter the genocide of Palestinians, I will gladly discuss your bullshit presumptions in another thread. Feel free to make one and ping me.

You do it by overwhelmingly knocking out the GOP so that there’s room within the blue wave for more progressive candidates.

That's not how it works. Dems treat their "left" flank as a group to be disciplined, not accommodated. And giving them the greenlight on genocide confirms a move right, not making space for the left.

Dems got their "wave" under Biden. They have moved right and their "progressives" have been cowed.

But genocide should be something you consider a red line regardless of the illogic sold to you by the party.

If, somehow, the Democrats swept with some insane margins, the GOP in its current form would need to evolve or die.

The same applies to Democrats who are committing a genocide, don't you think?

When a race is this close, the Democrats will always move to the center.

The Democrats move to the center because they are gambling that their "concerned" voters will fall in line and because they absolutely do not want to do the things those "concerned" voters want.

They look at you as someone to be handled by PR, not met with any concessions. And you enable that, including genocide, by voting blue no matter who.