TheDankHold @ TheDankHold @kbin.social

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2 yr. ago

It is when you refuse to elaborate and act like you staying this makes it true in and of itself. I’ve laid out a line of reasoning and you’ve just smugly accused me of bias.

Laugh all you want but all you’re doing is proving me right about you with every response.

Lovely photo! I think this is Corniglia right?

He had bad solutions but his criticisms of capitalism are spot on.

Also I prefer to blame the authoritarian strongmen who consolidated power as opposed to a guy that advocated against hierarchy. Is Adam Smith culpable for the Bengal famine?

Is that due to not liking teaching? Or because lawmakers and administration have made the job far more frustrating and difficult than it needs to be among other external factors?

That’s such a cool project!

I haven’t made up anything. You just don’t want to accept the facts I’m sharing. Why else would you ignore the details to make character assassinations towards me?

Explain how Netanyahu and Likud actively opposing a two state solution during Oslo means their known support for Hamas had nothing to do with undercutting the contemporary peace talks. Couple that with the known fact that Netanyahu refused to meet with Arafat upon taking power. You’re being willfully naive and it’s sad.

Sure Netanyahu’s Israel could act like Russia and not care about pr but that’s not how you keep your allies closest. For all your condescension you are profoundly stupid and disingenuous when it comes to thinking about this. They play the same game of geopolitics as everyone else, you’re just too stubborn to consider it.

Bringing up the US is a non sequitur.

As I already stated in my previous response (ironic considering your insistence that you are responding to my claims), Israel is not a monolith.

“To suggest they funded Hamas to sabotage peace deals they wrote…”

Who wrote those deals and who propped up Hamas? Do you think it was the same people? That’d be pretty idiotic. Again, the Israeli government is not a singular entity but a collection of politicians, each with their personal/collective ideologies.

It was Rabin’s moderate coalition and others that set up the accords and it was right wingers like Likud that propped up Hamas and scuttled the deal. Different people were involved with these events and I’ve made that pretty clear multiple times so cut the shit and stop being disingenuous.

Is that clear enough for you to understand?

You think it’s dumb because you’re treating the Israeli government as a monolith. The likud party was vehemently against those peace deals and Netanyahu is known to have refused further diplomacy with Arafat once he took power in 96. Why would they not pursue policy they explicitly advocate?

If you’re an extremist party that supports the militant settlers in the West Bank then Hamas is the perfect casus belli to keep pushing for the one state solution the most extreme Zionists want.

The only reason you’re denying historical facts is because you’re determined to defend your own position at all costs.

You haven’t responded to anything I’ve cited. Just a vague allusion to me being totally biased. Attempting to sidestep the actual points I’m raising is a sign of intellectually dishonesty.

I was merely providing information to validate the claim of the previous commenter. If you agree that Israel is largely responsible for the growth of Hamas then fair enough, your phrasing wasn’t very explicit on that front.

Doesn’t matter whether you agree or not. Reality exists all the same and you can’t change the fact that in 1984 the leader of what would become Hamas was detained by Israel for caching weapons. What should’ve been a 12 year sentence turned into an almost instant release.

Right wing Israeli politicians and military leaders did everything they could to prop up Hamas until it could violently overpower the Palestinian secularists and moderates.

Only Israelis that support Likud and other right wing extremist parties. There’s enormous support for removing Netanyahu among average Israelis because as usual the citizens aren’t as extreme as the manipulative politicians that maneuvered their way into power.

Much like Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinians as a whole, neither does Netanyahu’s Likud represent Israelis as a whole.

Here’s an Israeli that called out Israel propping up Hamas and how that would result in the 80s.

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

The irony of you saying that is palpable.

Israeli officials have gone on record to admit they provided quite a bit of support to Hamas in order to undercut more secular organizations. Here’s Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev:

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

Here’s another quote:

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

There was even a moment in 1984 where the leader of Hamas was detained for caching weapons. What should’ve been a 12 year prison term in Israel turned into a slap on the wrist and confiscation of the weapons. Yet another example of Israel knowingly empowering an extremist group.

Obviously they’d support Hamas since Hamas opposed the Fatah accepting a two state solution and disliked their moderate status:

It emerged out of his Mujama al-Islamiya, which had been established in Gaza in 1973 as an Islamic charity involved with the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood.[21] Hamas became increasingly involved in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict by the late 1990s;[61] it opposed the Israel–PLO Letters of Mutual Recognition as well as the Oslo Accords, which saw Fatah renounce "the use of terrorism and other acts of violence" and recognize Israel in pursuit of a two-state solution.

And on the topic of Rabin, do you deny that Israeli right wing extremist Yigal Amir assassinated Rabin? Do you deny that politicians like Netanyahu contributed to the vitriol towards Rabin?

Another element in the incitement, however unwitting, was political. The fury of Netanyahu’s right wing Likud party knew no bounds. Footage shows Netanyahu speaking at a big rally on Oct. 5, 1995, a month before the assassination. As he speaks, chants rise from the crowd: “Rabin is a traitor,” “In blood and fire we will get rid of Rabin.” Posters were raised of Rabin in Nazi SS uniform. David Levy, a prominent member of Likud, left. Netanyahu carried on.

Netanyahu was also an ardent opponent of the Oslo Accords so when he took power in 96 he refused to continue meetings with the Fatah leader Arafat which resulted in the accord falling apart completely.

The absolute arrogance you have when accusing me of living in an alternate reality is mind blowing.

No they’re inflicting that currently. Extremist threats from low tech militias aren’t equal to the Israeli settler programs happening now or the conditions that the 40% 17 and under live in within Gaza, under Israel’s direct order.

Israel is currently gripped by extremists themselves, they assassinated the Israeli pm that set up the Oslo accords then scuttled them. They funded Hamas because it was easier to ideologically oppose than moderate parties.

The real reason is that extremists on both sides see each other as a great tool for recruitment. Israeli citizens need to follow through on their anti corruption protests and vote extreme Zionists out of power.

The irony is that all this fluff is you justifying why Israeli citizens are worth more. Just because terrorists kill civilians doesn’t give one the right to callously allow the death of yet more innocent civilians.

They both matter, which is what we’re saying when we speak out against Israel’s policy of collective punishment.

Very similar to the frenzy around Bush Jr’s Iraq war as well.

What are you referring to here? I think you mistyped.

Regardless. The average age of a person in Gaza is 18. The percentage of Hamas militants among the population is around 1%. Stop treating the people like a monolith. I know it makes it easy for people to justify atrocities but it’s intellectually lazy.

These are mostly children that are suffering, born into the iron grip of a fundamentalist regime with zero access education of any kind.

By all means keep justifying their collective abuse if you want. Just be more honest about what you advocate.

When was the last time a Gaza citizen could leave the region without the permission of the Israeli government? Just because the siege is done in a way to maximize good pr doesn’t make the siege non existent.

The overwhelming majority of available water is non potable and malnutrition is an epidemic there but they are still alive so I guess it’s not actually happening in your eyes.

Remember when the IDF murdered a bunch of activists for trying to sail in with food and medical supplies on a flotilla? Here’s some info on what happened:

“According to a UN report, all activist deaths were caused by gunshots, and "the circumstances of the killing of at least six of the passengers were in a manner consistent with an extra-legal, arbitrary and summary execution."”

This was in 2010 and the blockade hasn’t ceased to exist.

Love that this is a thing! Need to get down to NZ at some point

Why specify western? Confucianism and eastern philosophies are very controlling themselves. India’s backwards caste system is justified by their religion too.

Organized religions are all tools of control. There’s no regional exceptionalism here. Even Buddhism has a body count.