Teachers in England will have to tell parents if children question their gender
If for one will definitely not be partaking, as I don't want any of my traffic going to Reddit if I can help it.
However, I would be interested to see the result. I suspect there will be at least some references to the protests, if not censored, and a couple of "Fuck u/Spez"s for completeness
I've been arguing exactly this with someone else somewhere in this thread. There are children who would be abused/kicked out of their home over this sort of thing.
I'd happy waiting until my child is ready to tell me to learn of certain aspects about them if it means protecting another from harm of this sort.
The problem I feel is the very parents demanding to know this information are the exact parents you wouldn't want knowing this information for their child's sake.
Exactly. Puts you in a position where not only are you legally required to potentially put a child in direct line of fire by ousting them, you then can't then do jack about it until the situation turns visibly abusive.
I've been arguing it out with someone that safeguarding absolutely includes (or should've included) the right of teachers (or more so the school) to not disclose information that could potentially lead to abuse.
Teachers are usually the first non-parental authority figures kids will go to with these types of questions, and now they're being cut off from that safe space.
Strict surveillance doesn't raise more honest people, it raises better liars.
Tell you what, I've been back and forth with this person somewhere else in this thread, and it really astounds me how someone could be both small government and demand the right to use the strong arm of the government to allow parents to surviel their child via their own teachers.
Then they question you because you can't prove they said that directly, as though inferring such without saying it absolves them of any guilt. Might work in court, but that doesn't work here.
“I want a therapist” - see, don’t need to say anything about wanting to be called LaQuanda instead of Jimmy. This is really fucking basic stuff, dude. You just want an excuses to have teachers take on the role of parenting for these kids, without having the actual responsibility for them. That’s worse for educators, and parents.
If you think "I want a therapist" will get the kid a therapist with nothing else said or done, I think it's you that's naive. Even if it's a school's therapist, those resources are limited in scope, and assessment of need would be carried out.
It's true that this would be more confidential, but I am surprised that you're up for this considering this is another government employee quite literally having secret meetings with your child, and would still result in you not being told anything.
You can literally say that about any abuse situation. I can’t file a domestic abuse charge on my partner because I missed a bill payment and I think one day she may slap me because of it.
I think you and I both know that's not the same, nor carries the same weight as potentially being abused and kicked out of your home due to being ousted as LGBT+.
If there is a reasonable suspicion that disclosing that information could lead to abuse, and not disclosing it wouldn't, I'd much rather those "government employees" err on the side of not waiting until they've introduced a child into an abusive situation before doing something about it.
That’s what you’re doing. You just think anytime there’s a kid who doesn’t tell his parent something, it must be abusive. Teachers aren’t responsible for their students lives, parents are. Stop trying to make it so these government agents don’t respond to the taxpayers wants and actively fight against the people they’re supposed to serve.
I don't think anytime a child doesn't want their parent to be told something it is abusive. What I don't want is a law that creates a situation where the above is true, and makes the situation worse.
I'm pinpointing on this as an example, because it's a realistic scenario that points out that a universal disclosure law isn't a good idea if you actually want to protect children, because it isn't always the just outside world that could harm them.
They aren't fighting against the people they're supposed to serve. Their ability is foster the people of the future, and that includes safeguarding them from harm, including that introduced by the child's parents.
Plus, are you forgetting that these children will one day be those very tax-payers, who may very well be thankful that their school acted in their best interest?
Because y’alls argument is always ‘these kids will instantly get abused then kicked out!’ and making that some sort of gotcha, like I’m pro-homeless youth.
You act like that's a purely hypotherical situation I'm popping out if my ass. There are children in this situation, where this will happen, and your solution is to render them homeless. At least in this situation, you are pro-homeless youth.
And, as I’ve said, that’s outside the scope of teaching. Teachers are required by law to report abuse, outside of that they should be expected to tell parents about the behavior of their kids.
And that's because teachers do have a lot of duties outside the scope of teaching, including safeguarding.
And I think that's where things differ between us. I think the school (not just the teacher) should be allowed to withhold that information if they believe it would endanger that child.
As I’ve said and you apparently can’t grasp - we have these protections for EVERYONE, why are you trying to carve out special cases for the + community? reporting suspected abuse of a gay kid is the same as reporting it for a straight kid. They’re on the same form, what do you think, the gay kid has a pink abuse form?
I'm not trying to carve out a special case for LGBT+, this law that has brought on this discussion is entirely about a law the affects specifically the T part of that community, so of course the conversation will drift that way, because that's how conversations work.
You seem to think I'm happy letting it get to the point of abuse, when the option to not do so is there. That you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not there.
Also, in the event there was a piece of information in the same vein that potentially could introduce abuse to a straight child in the same way, I would also want the school to practice discretion about it.
It doesn’t matter if they’re the same. They’re government employees, which are inherently supposed to serve the tax payers, not take their kids and have secret meetings with them.
The safeguarding duty is serving the tax-payer. It is preventing abuse where there is reason to suspect that the disclosure of certain information could create an abusive situation.
You say "secret meetings" as though the teachers are going out shopping with them to buy opposite gendered clothes and putting them on HRT. There are much better resources than than what a teacher can and should offer, but that's not possible if you don't render an environment where the child has a chance to ask for them.
If my kid breaks his leg biking, is it on the teachers to safeguard my kids? If my kid gets cancer, is it on the teachers to provide medical support?
Teachers have a job, and they’re pushing to be outside that scope. Teachers aren’t there to keep secrets from parents.
In the event of a broken leg, yes, a first-aid qualified teacher would provide first-aid to the child, then let paramedics take over from there. In that situation, obviously discretion is not going to be required because it's not a sensitive issue.
And in the event of cancer, I'd hope the parents have an active enough involvement in their child's life that their teachers find out they've got cancer before they do. A teacher wouldn't be diagnosing such, as that is outside the scope of their job.
Again, they're their to protect your child. If that means protecting them from you, then yes, that is and should be in the scope of their job. Besides which, it isn't them alone that would do this. It would be up the school as well, as a teacher does have the duty to report it to the school so that resources can be given.
Apparently this is too long a conversation, so I'm going to have to split this in two.
You not understanding that it’s severely encroaching the the relationship between teachers and parents is because you don’t have empathy.
Well that's certainly an accusation.
Are you sure about that, as you don't seem to empathise with the idea that most children do not cope well with losing their home, and that not losing their home is the ideal solution.
I understand your side and have a different way of wanting to deal with it that avoids the problems I see with government employees having side secrets with my 8 year old.
It's not about just having a "side secret". It's about rendering a safe space where children don't feel afraid of being who they are, when they don't have that option at home.
Bare in mind that this isn't even about direct disclosures. Every teacher would be obligated to report, so the child even acknowledging that fact anywhere in the school could be enough.
It makes it much easier for the teachers/school to offer resources to that child when that child isn't actively afraid of disclosing that information.
Even in the majority of situations where the parents aren't potentially abusive, it could even just allow the child to not be forcibly ousted until they're ready or more certain of their mindset.
You said kids might be homeless. I responded with a way to deal with it. Once again, that’s how conversations go.
Key word in that was might.
In your world you dealt with it by rendering them homeless then picking up the pieces afterwards. That's the worst outcome, at least in my mind.
You realise that means letting it get to the point of abuse right?
You're basically saying that if a child fears letting their parents know something about them could lead to their abuse, they have to hide it and live in fear and distrust until they turn 18 and can run away right?
The scenario I made is that there are kids who could be made homeless via this law.
I was heavily implying that it is a dangerous downstream ramification of that law, and is a reason to not have a law like that which forces universal non-discretion.
Rather than say something like "oh right, you might be onto something there, maybe we shouldn't enact laws that will potentially render children homeless"
You basically said "whelp, they're going to be homeless, we should invest in programs that help the homeless"
You and you alone are the one who advanced that to them already being homeless.
This is why I said you were so attached to that idea that you'd already discounted the idea of safeguarding and discretion to prevent them from being homeless, because you did, possibly without even realising it.
It isn't me reading too deep or not enough, it's literally the first thing you said.
Again, read your own words, or at the very least read mine FFS.
Posters, like we have in a lot of government buildings, saying ‘if you’re experiencing home insecurity, use this resource’
Fucking easy, dude. Once again, you make it seem so special that it’s the + community experiencing homelessness. It doesn’t matter, they’re people too. Straight kids experiencing homelessness and + community need the same thing - a roof over their head.
Firstly, I made that comment before you elaborated on the idea that your "programs" referred to programs to help the homeless. Of course that kind of generalised "hone insecurity" helpline is going to be available, but why do we have to start from the idea of them getting kicked out in the first place.
As I've said in other comments, you are so committed to the idea that all parents must know all to such an extent that you don't even consider the possibility that many children could be saved from homelessness simply by discretion offered by a teacher as a safeguarding agent.
You're right that LGBT+ kids aren't special in regards to being homeless, but this conversation right here, right now isn't about that. You're just pulling an "All Lives Matter" on this conversation as if that's some epic comeback.
Are they not government employees?
They are government employees, bur acting like all government employees are exactly the same is again a really bloody stupid take.
Again, teachers are trained not just to teach, but to safeguard your children from all sorts of things.
I agree with this and it’s the same in the U.S. Once again - it’s to defend against abuse by parents, whether it’s a straight cis male or a trans woman. We don’t need special rules - abuse is abuse.
And yet by ousting a child like this to their parents by force of law, like you're supporting, you throw that child into a potentially abusive situation that could've been avoided.
It's like handing the school bully a stack full of blackmail on a student and expecting them not to abuse it.
Schools have therapists and counselors.
Therapists and Counselors that they have to be referred to by their teachers or parents, the exact people they won't tell because they can't trust them.
EDIT - Actually there's one other bit I didn't think about typing this. Not all disclosures are deliberate. A teacher could overhear this and now be obligated to bring hell down upon a child without them being aware of what's coming, which I'd argue is even worse. No therapists or councillors are gonna help with that.
I agree. I don’t think it’s up to government agents to self determine this situation in the family, though. If teachers suspect abuse, they’re obligated to report it.
So you'd rather it get to the point of abuse before a teacher can do something about it?
It's not even just about self-evaluation - if a child disclosed this to a teacher under the belief they would be safeguarded, the teacher would be legally obligated to say it to the parents even if that child told the teacher the exact nature of their family dynamics and the potential abuse this information could lead to.
Tell you what, it must be great living in your world of black and white where you never have to consider the downstream ramifications your broad generalisations produce.
You should learn to read your own words. As a direct reply to that person, you said:
Your interpretation of my saying that we should invest in programs to help out the homeless use, as instead me saying it’s fine is a reflection on your poor reading comprehension.
You literally say in this comment that what you were saying to me is that "we should invest in professional to help out the homeless".
Tell me in what universe that doesn't interprete as you having already made the decision in your head that you would rather them be homeless than let a teacher have discretion of a safeguarding agent.
I am the guy you were replying when you said that "homie"
I gave you that question. It wasn't a scenario where a child is already homeless, it was that the implications of this law would drive children in that situation into homelessness.
Your reply to that there was thrte should be programs to help them, which you elaborate to mean the homeless. You've told me you're so attached to this idea that you've already discounted the option of withholding this information for the sake of a child's safety and wellbeing, which tells me enough about what you think.
Yeah. It is ridiculous that there was one and only one vote to decide something that will affect our lives for quite literally generations, and then 1/3 of the eligible population just decided not to show up to vote on it
Reinventing the wheel but worse is what the right-wing's always been good at.
If you won't accept them in your club, they'll make their own with Whitejack and Alpha-malesᵗᵐ
Shit jokes are exactly what we're here for though. Wouldn't be shit-posting if it was good!
I'm referring to the 48% of remain voters that did turn out.
Not counting those that didn't vote (if thry could) because they're arguably more ignorant than the Brexiteers, complaining now when they didn't speak up back then.
The problem is just over 50% of our population seemed to be wearing rose-tinted goggles of back when we controlled over half the world's trade...
They failed to realise the reality that we relied on the EU as much as it relied on us, and cutting ourselves off from our primary trade partners was a plainly stupid thing to do.
There was also the racists who saw it as a way to get rid of the "foreigners", not realising many of these immigrants weren't from the schengen zone, therefore wouldn't be "sent back", but that's a different story.
Slightly less than 50% of the country could've told you that was gonna happen before we were forced through the motions.
Should've been common sense that blocking ourselves off from easy access to trade with our primary trade partners was a bad idea, even more so when you consider the privileged position we had in the EU based on our former standing as a world superpower that we were tossing away for nothing.
I'm the one defending + kids from being made homeless, you're defending parents spying on their kids.
If this were something criminally liable, jailable, that sort of thing, I'd see where you're coming from. But I'm certainly not comfortable with the idea of any children, even if it were only a handful being rendered homeless for the sake of their parent's identity politics.
Because the parents who would use this information for abuse are the ones I (and many others in this thread) are worried this law will empower.
And I'm rather bothered that your solution is to throw up your hands and say "nothing we could've done" while throwing the child into the frying pan, then letting the authorities know once they've already been burnt.
Considering the general reputation of priests for child molestation, I wouldn't be comfortable with my child meeting everyday with them anyway.
But that aside, you understand it wouldn't just be the teacher(s) involved, there are other steps to safeguarding resources if the child needed them, teachers are just the first step.
Again, you're acting as though the child and teacher are having constant secret 1 on 1 sessions, where the teacher is telling your child what to do. The reality of the matter is that teachers are the first step in safeguarding, and if they find this information out, it would be their job to refer the child to relevant resources, or even to a school therapist.
You're the one who wants to burden teachers by forcing them have to reveal sensitive information that they know could lead to abuse. No teacher wants to be up at night thinking they could be directly responsible for introducing a child into an abusive situation.
That's such a disingenuous question.
Of course I trust there are good organisations to help with homelessness, but that's not the point.
If there's an option to not let it get to the point of needing to rely on those organisations, then we should do just that. If that means giving a teacher (and their school) the right not to disclose sensitive information to parents they suspect may abuse it, I'm comfortable with that.
I'm saying your approach is callous. Willing to put children into abusive situations for the sake of satisfying helicopter parents who think surveillance is a better solution than building up a trusting home environment.