Shanmugha @ Shanmugha @lemmy.world

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5 mo. ago

So now we can finally go back to good old code optimization, right? Right? (Padme.jpg)

Mm, nah. First, few remarks to set context:

-the law is crap, no question about that

-whole morality concept is also crap as fuck, but let's say this crap did allow for some people to live longer and/or healthier

And now for the neat part or why I won't become a doctor unless forced by some apocalyptic shit: say, you know for sure the patient has caused and/or will cause immense harm and suffering to others (think killers and rapists, for example). Unless you are inhuman, you will doubt whether to help them and thus cause more suffering to other people or let this one die and prevent that, and there is nothing shitty about that.

Cyberpunk 2077. Years since I booted it for the first time I am still at it

Once again, need of regulation means humans are under-developed.

Caring for short-term benefit paying for it by damaging long-term profits is exactly why I call such people idiots, together with trying to use "companies", "capitalism", "incentives" and a whole ton of other illusions to run from responsibility. Do I need to explain how not taking responsibility means becoming a slave?

-being smart my ass, lol (that's insult to the idea, not you). That is not being smart, that is being stupid life-wise

• almost any social system is an immature mumbo-jumbo produced and kept in place by idiots. All -isms fall into this category
• the idea that humans are capable of recognising how life works is flawed in your eyes? Thanks, I end this conversation

People following incentives blah-bkah is people being morons. See also "I was following orders" fallacy applied to army

Capitalism strives for something? Niice. And I thought "economic system" does not have any strivings

Anything has to be enforced because we consistently fail to produce developed and balanced humans. Whatever -ism you try to build around what kind of people we have now, it will fail. So cut the crap about capitalism already

No, that's not a rhetorical question. The "profit above all else" you have described is a bullshit tracing back to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy

And again, there is no such thing as "companies direct responsibility". Humans do

So once again, what does capitalism have to do with people being absolute morons?

Right. And how does capitalism have anything to do with it?

Edit: companies do not exist. Humans do

Niw you are doomed and there is no going back. Welcome to the gang;)

And pure unadulterated something-else-ism would not, lol. The concept of responsibility that hard to grasp?

No, I toss both in the same garbage bin, while separating from what is usually referred as spiritual process. But if that is all you've got to say, let's leave it at this point

Oh, so many things I can say in response. I will try to make it brief, though

Yes but so what?

So, for example, tons of people think themselves into depression and suicide because of some bullshit morals they have come to value more than anything else. I would rather have merciless killers to deal with, but not this kind of suffering going on around

You can’t have society if people go around destroying that society

Oh, but we do. Show me a country with empty prisons (preferably without prison-as-punishment laws even)

Edit: as an example of society without morals, if I remember correctly Gautama has spent some time with his disciples just hanging around. For those who do not know, buddhism does not care about morals in the common sense, and yet whenever you get a master+disciples group, that is a certain kind of society, very much capable to function

You make rules and enforce them to stop that destruction. Thats morality in a nutshell.

Which is plain declaring "I have failed". Failed in building a sustainable society. Failed in producing people capable of living in a sensible way. Failed to even restrict those who I failed to mold into something not that kind of destructive. I write "I" here, because in the end, if we look back in time, for every damn "moral code rule" that got spread, taught and enforced we will track that one idiot who enabled all this bullshit

This has been going on so long that it’s hard wired into most of us.

True. And because it got wired that deep we have enormous amount of suffering, because life cares not about "right" or "wrong"

For the psychopaths that don’t have that hardwire, we have places to put them. I.e. prisons and boardrooms.

Surprise: it is possible to live without any moral conditioning and still not fall into destructive behaviour. And also, we continue to revere people who have done things far from "morally right way". (Jesus, Krishna, Gautama to name a few most recognizable names). Today every single one of them would have ended up in a prison or mental hospital, which also speaks something about what morality actually is

You even understand what you just said? Edit: I misread you "experiencing yourself".

Well, "I can't understand you" does not equal "you can't express yourself". So, do go on with your life, nothing to see here

Yes, and I have spent tons of time trying to understand why. Did not reach the understanding, but looks like I am starting to accept this as is. Thank you for reminding that not all "other people" are "those who do not get me no matter how hard I try"

Lol. You got nothing of what I said, but I'm ok with it

Thank you :) And maybe it is not. If reality is an illusion and I am only dreaming, why can't I dream myself immortal and stop getting so sleepy in the evenings already. But yeah, a comet could wipe us all and meaning only exists in the mind of observer, this is a hill I can joyfully die on

That is a word salad I could support, as dbtng already said:)

Ok, but seriously, I studied only a bit of philosophy and no ethics, and the question of discerning between objective reality and subjective observer can keep us occupied for many lifetimes, so no use in trying do dive deeper

Thank you for the reply :)

Well, trying to teach others to think like me is not something I will attempt: in the end, what I have come to think about anything is just a result of my biography, there is no point in trying to imprint it onto other people. And for the coping part, two things:

• the world was before me, will be after me. If I get wounded by how it is, that's on me
• I am not talking about good and bad being inconsequential, I am talking of them not existing as actual reality, same way words do not exist as reality: they mean what they mean only because some people agreed on it. There is nothing to cope with

No, I don't expect there to be any ready label for this. In a nutshell:

• humans are as much part of life on this planet as everything else. the "killing is wrong" kind of maxims is just plain bullshit, just go watch how other forms of life take care of their sustenance
• moral dilemmas show by their existence that pretty much any widespread "morally right" way to behave has its limits, yet those limits are somehow "omitted" from most sources that are supposed to teach people what is good and what is bad

also, "good" and "bad" do not actually exist: you can vaporise whole Earth and rest of the universe won't even notice

• still there is a vivid difference between a kind soul attending to a garden a feeding stray cats and dogs who happen to come by and an idiot torturing kittens in front of their mother just for fun, even seeing these situations produces very different experiences. Substitute humans here with animals and appropriate behaviour, the difference will still stand. So there is some kind of "this is in line with how all life longs to be", "that is not how mature and balanced living creatures operate", but I have no clue even what level to look at to find that difference

Wait till you realize morality is shitty fucked up crutch that doesn't work at best and a tool to control people at... usual, not even the worst