Ocelot @ Ocelot @lemmies.world

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2 yr. ago

Please let me know where I stated anything inaccurate in the comment about the single incident that has been dug up in the 500k FSD cars and millions of miles traveled self-driving.

Also lets please keep this civil and not be name-calling. I hate Elon as much as anyone else and he deserves pretty much all the hate he gets. However it doesn’t change facts. Its not like he was responsible for writing even a single line of code in FSD or even designed or built any of the cars himself.

No I would never suggest that. The overwhelming consensus here is “FSD is dangerous. More dangerous than humans” Im asking for any proof of that here. So far, nothing. If they were getting in to accidents all the time there would be all kinds of footage, no? The fact is that even in this beta stage its already safer than human drivers. That apparently rubs people the wrong way for some reason. Don’t we all want safer roads?

Humans did not evolve to drive cars. ML did. It drives consistently with no distractions. It is never tired, drunk, or experiences road rage. It has super human reaction time and can see in a full 360 degrees. It is not about being a lazy fatass it is about safety. Hundreds of people in the US were killed in car accidents just today, and none of them were from self driving cars.

Also please provide an example of a life threatening accident cause by FSD.

There are still a lot of other layers that need to be compromised past the cert for such an attack to even be possible. Even so, I suspect when such an attack does happen it will probably be for stealing cars. Your car would just wake up in the middle of the night and drive itself somewhere else to be cut up for parts. Less likely is any kind of safety issue since its so easy to take over control of the car.

See my huge post about that very accident right below. Do you have any other “Many many examples”?

all im asking for is some evidence of the bad. Nobody can provide it. It really shouldn’t be that hard.

Its saved on to a thumb drive. any user can pull off and use or post the footage anywhere. It never gets uploaded to tesla, only snapshots and telemetry.

lol the anti tesla crew will downvote even the most basic facts.

I genuinely feel like I'm losing my mind here. Maybe that was your entire goal. Maybe its that you're not listening and just like projecting your own opinions. I don't know who or what hurt you or why you're so angry but I'm done here. I've asked repeatedly for any sort of evidence as to why you feel this way, why you think FSD behaves this way and instead of providing anything you just escalate it and now we're at name calling and calling me a liar. This is far from being a productive conversation. There's so much to unpack here in this... whatever this is... you just posted I just really don't .. I can't spend any more energy on it.

The early alpha build not part of public release? That video? The one with the known regression in the model S?

That video was a demo of the new FSD beta 12 software, which is the first time a neural network was in complete control of the car, resulting in a massive reduction in code and overall smoothness. Did I mention the part where it was unreleased to the public? Maybe there's a reason for that?

Other than that the car performed flawlessly in the entire 40 minute drive.

not all accidents are that violent. I would even accept a video of a simple fender bender to prove that FSD beta causes accidents with any sort of frequency. Those should be pretty common if FSD is dangerous as a lot of people are implying, right?

I mean I think its still a valid point. The car in the show was sabotaged, and that is definitely something that might be a thing once all cars self-drive. Especially once they remove controls like steering wheels.

There hasn't been a tesla FSD hack yet, but it would take spoofing a software update (and spoof the authentication and certs, etc)... The attacker would need to have access to a pretty massive supercomputer to make their own custom self-driving software and today getting the certs and everything right is next to impossible... but even then its only next to impossible, not impossible.

Maybe so, but from where I stand the primary goal should be "Better driver than a human" which is an incredibly low bar. We are already quite a ways past that and its getting better with every release. FSD is today nearly 100% safe, most of the complaints now are around how it drives like a robot by obeying traffic laws, which confuses a lot of other drivers. There are still some edge cases yet to be ironed out extensively like really heavy rain, some icy conditions and snow. People are also terrible drivers in those conditions so its not a surprise. It will get there.

FSD has never driven under a truck, that was autopilot, which is an LKAS system. The incident happend 1 year prior to "Navigate on autopilot" so the car in question was never even able to change lanes on its own. The driver deliberately instructed the car to drive into the trailer.

FSD beta is currently available in most of Europe and has been for several months.

Lets not resort to name calling or personal attacks here. You stated there are "Thousands of videos" of FSD related accidents, I only asked for a few examples. Please tell me where it is you're getting this information. Help me change my mind.

Do you understand what a "rolling stop" is? It is when you don't come to a complete stop at a stop sign, you slow down to 0.5 or 1mph, check both ways and move through. This has been studied time and time again that practically NOBODY on the road comes to a full and complete stop at stop signs. That is how the FSD beta was working in earlier releases because thats how it learned to drive. NHTSA said they had to come to a complete stop so Tesla fixed it. You again said that Teslas were still rolling through stop signs and I'm once again asking where you got that information?

"Actually owning one of these foolish gadgets for 5 years" I'm guessing you're trying to say you own a Tesla? You clearly don't have FSD because if you did you'd know that it makes full stops 100% of the time. I certainly have doubts you actually do own a tesla because if someone spends 40-60 grand on something they consider a "Foolish Gadget" why on earth would they hold on to it for so long? Just sell it and get something else, move on with your life and don't bash people who like their cars.

I've asked you, now 3 times now to present evidence. Video evidence of FSD doing dangerous things. Given that all teslas have 360 dashcams that are constantly recording and we live in an age of such ease of video sharing that really shouldn't be a big ask if FSD is as dangerous as you're implying. These incidents should be happening daily. That is what would change my mind. What would change your mind?

I bought my model Y in 2020 with FSD and emailed tesla for early beta access based on my engineering experience and the part of the country I'm located in. They granted it almost a year later and I've been driving with it almost every day since. Why on earth would you doubt that? Do you need some kind of evidence?

I am not a "Software by trade" that was a typo. Believe it or not I wrote that entire thing on mobile.

Correlation does not equal causation. Tesla sold a huge number more vehicles in the past 2 years than ever before. Also in 2019,2020 and part of 2021 not a lot of people were driving due to the pandemic.

And, yes, a lot of the first incident I covered there was mostly anecdotal or what I think is happening. Importantly, what I think is happening as someone with years and tens of thousands of miles of experience using FSD beta. I do not have the facts and also importantly, neither do you. I am interested to see what comes out of that court case, but from where I sit I do not think FSD was involved at all.

Please let me know where I have misrepresented facts, I will either correct them or cite sources.

Again, Teslas come with a factory installed 360 dashcam. It records all the time. Where are all of the videos of these FSD related incidents?

The recall was most definitely not for "driving through stops". It was to fix the behavior of doing a "rolling stop", which is something 99.5% of drivers do, which is how it learned to do that. Where do you see that it still does not make a complete stop at stop signs?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/02/01/feds-make-tesla-remove-rolling-stops-its-a-terrible-decision/?sh=67b344722111

I'm not trying to remain in the dark here, I'm just presenting facts. I'm very open to change my mind on this situation entirely just give me the facts. You said there were thousands of these videos I'm just asking for evidence. I just get downvoted and nobody posts any of the evidence.

Im an AI professional and have been an FSD beta tester for almost 3 years with tens of thousands of miles logged. How can I possibly be the one “in the dark” here?

It really depends on the field, lots of jobs just like to see that you went to college and got some kind of higher education. Its OK if you don't necessarily use 100% of what you learned it just more demonstrates that you have the capacity and drive to constantly better yourself. Did you have a particular kind of career in mind when picking these majors?

I mean there are obviously exceptions, like if you want to be a doctor you'd better have gone to med school.

Can you link a few? Something where FSD directly or indirectly causes an accident?

You realize that FSD is not an LLM, right?

If its "Way Worse" then where are all the accidents? All teslas have 360 dashcams. Where are all the accidents?!

I'm sure you're just going to downvote this and move on without reading but I'm going to post it anyway for posterity.

First, a little about me. I am a software engineer by trade with expertise in cloud and AI technologies. I have been an FSD beta tester since late 2020 with tens of thousands of incident-free miles logged on it.

I'm familiar with all of these incidents. Its great that they're in chronological order, that will be important later.

I need to set some context and history because it confuses many people when they refer to the capabilities of autopilot and FSD. Autopilot and FSD (Full Self-Driving) are not the same thing. FSD is a $12,000 option on top of any Tesla, and no Tesla built prior to 2016 has the hardware capability to run FSD.

The second historical point is that FSD did not have any public release until mid-2022, with some waves of earlier releases going to the safest drivers starting in mid-2021. Prior to that it was exclusive to Tesla employees and select few trusted beta testers in specific areas. Any of the issues in this article prior to mid-2021 are completely irrelevant to the topic.

Tesla's autopilot system is an LKAS (Lane keep assist system). This is the same as is offered in Honda (Honda Sensing), Nissan (Pro Pilot Assist), Subaru, Cadillac, etc. Its capabilities are limited to keeping you in your lane (via a front-facing camera) and maintaining distance to the car in front of you (via radar, or cameras in later models). It does not automatically change lanes. It does not navigate for you. It does not make turns or take exits. It does not understand most road signs. Until 2020 it did not even know what a red light was. It is a glorified cruise control and has always been presented as such. Tesla has never advertised this as any sort of "hands-off" system where the driver does not need to pay attention. They do not allow the driver to lose attention from the road in FSD either, requiring hands-on the wheel and constant torque as well as eyes on the road (via an interior camera) in order to work. If you are caught not paying attention enough times the system will disengage and even kick you out of the program with enough violations.

OK, now that being said, lets dig in:

November 24, 2022: FSD malfunction causes 8-car pile-up on Bay Bridge

• I'm from the area and have driven this exact spot hundreds of times on FSD and have never experienced anything even remotely close to what is shown here
• "Allegedly" with FSD engaged
• Tesla FSD "phantom" braking does not behave like this, and never has in the past. Teslas have 360 degree vision and are aware of traffic in front of and behind them.
• Notice at the beginning of the video that this car was in the process of a lane change, this introduces a couple of possibilities as to what happened here, namely:
• Teslas do have a feature under autopilot/FSD that if after multiple warnings for the driver to pay attention and no engagement, the car will slow down and pull over to the shoulder and stop. This particular part of the bay bridge does not have a shoulder, so it stopped where it is. This seems unlikely, since neural networks are very capable of identifying what a shoulder is and that its in an active lane of traffic, and even with tesla's massive fleet of vehicles on FSD there are no other recorded instances of this happening anywhere else.
• This particular spot on the bay bridge eastbound has a very sudden and sharp exit to Yerba Buena Island. What I think happened is that the driver was aiming for this exit, saw that they were about to miss it and tapped the brake and put on the turn signal not realizing that they just disengaged FSD. The car then engaged regen braking and came to a full stop.
• When a tesla comes to a full stop automatically (an emergency stop) it puts the hazards on automatically. This has been a feature since the v1 autopilot days. This car’s hazards do not come on after the stop.
• What seems especially weird to me is that the driver continued to let the car sit there at a full stop while traffic piled up behind them. In FSD you are always in control of your own car and all it would have taken is tapping the accelerator pedal to get moving again. FSD will always relinquish control over the car to you if you tap the brakes or grab and move the steering wheel hard enough. Unless there was some mechanical issue that brought the car to a stop and prevented it from moving, in which case this is not the fault of the FSD software.
• Looking at how quickly (or lack thereof) the car slowed down this seems to very clearly be the car using regen braking, not emergency braking. I'm almost positive this means that FSD was disengaged completely.
• We don't have all the facts on this case yet and I'll be anxious to see how this plays out in court but there are definitely many red flags on this one that have me questioning what actually happened here, but I doubt if FSD has anything to do with it.
• If my earlier point is true this is actually an instance of an accident being caused because the driver disengaged self-driving. The car would have been much safer if the driver wasn't even there.

April 22, 2022: Model Y in "summon mode" tries to drive through a $2 million jet

• This one is a favorite among the tesla hate community. Understandably so.
• Smart summon has 0 to do with FSD or even autopilot. It is a party trick to be used under very specific supervised processes
• Smart summon relies exclusively on the front camera and ultrasonic sensors
• While smart summon is engaged, the user still has full control over their car via the phone app. If the car does anything unexpected you only need to release your finger from the button and the car stops immediately. The "driver" did not do this and was not supervising the car, the car did not see the jet because it was entirely above the ultrasonic sensors, and as I'm sure you can understand the object recognition isn't exactly trained on parked airplanes.
• The app and the car remind the driver each and every time it is engaged that they need to be within a certain range and within eyesight of the car to use it. If you remote control your car into an obstacle and it causes an accident, its your fault, period.
• Tesla is working on a new version of smart summon which will make this feature more useful in the future.

February 8, 2022: FSD nearly takes out bicyclist as occupants brag about system's safety

• I suggest actually watching the video here. What happened is highly at odds with what is actually in the video, but the vid is just over an hour long so I bet most people don't bother watching it.
• "It wouldn't have hit them, it definitely wouldn't have hit them. Do we need to cut that?" "No, you can keep it in"
• If you look at what was happening on the car's display, it detected someone entering the crosswalk and stepping out into traffic on the left side. The car hit the brake, sounded an alert and swerved to the right. There was a bicycle in front of where the car swerved but at no point was it about to "nearly take out a bicyclist". It did definitely overreact here out of safety but at no point was anyone in danger.
• Relatively speaking this is a very old version of FSD software, just after the first wave of semi-public release.

December 6, 2021: Tesla accused of faking 2016 Full Self Driving video

• lol

March 17, 2021: Tesla on Autopilot slams into stationary Michigan cop car

• Now we're getting into pre-FSD autopilot. See above comments about the capabilites of autopilot. Feel free to compare these to other cars LKAS systems. You will see that there are still lots of accidents across the board even with LKAS. That is because it is an assist system and the driver is still fully responsible and in-control of the car.

June 1, 2020: Tesla Model 3 on Autopilot crashes into overturned truck

• Again, pre-FSD. If the driver didn't see the overturned truck and disengaged to stop then I'm not sure how anyone expects a basic LKAS system to be able to do that for them.

March 1, 2019: NHTSA, NTSB investigating trio of fatal Tesla crashes

• This one involves a fatality, unfortunately. However, the car was not self-driving. There is something else very important to point out here:
• The feature that allows Teslas to change lanes automatically on the freeway (Navigate on Autopilot) was not released until a year after this accident happened. That means, that if AP was engaged in this accident, the driver deliberately instructed the car via engaging the turn signal to merge into that truck.

May 7, 2016: First known fatality involving Tesla's Autopilot system

• Now we're getting way back into the V1 autopilot systems which weren't even made by tesla. This uses a system called MobilEye and is made by a third party and is even less capable than V2 autopilot

So, there we go. FSD has been out to the public for a few years now to a massive fleet of vehicles, driving collectively millions upon millions of miles and this is the best we've got in terms of a list showing how "Dangerous" it is? That is pretty remarkable.

Excited to see your response.