Maoo [none/use name] @ Maoo @hexbear.net

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2 yr. ago

Markets don't really mean anything nowadays outside the context of capitalism. It's a place you sell commodities and where there is a presumption of competition. Where does competition come from when production is not capital-driven (and then profit-driven)? The capital valorization process is still there and therefore the slew of horrors forcing humans to destroy each other so there can be 7 brands of blood diamonds.

Socialists have different perspectives on markets after there has been a socialist-won revolution. All of us know they are imbued with capitalist relations, the question is about how they might be used transitionally.

You can skip markets through nationalization, for example. A nationalized power grid operates better and more cheaply than those that operate as markets, for example. Or running a transit system. Maybe nobody needs 7 brands of bland diced tomatoes. That kind of thing.

The Soviet Union broke due to constant and merciless capitalist violence. Everything else is just responses in that constellation, like failing to sufficiently oppose that violence. A simple example is the decimation of the Soviet population by the invading fascists - the genocidal capitalists that were gladly supported by other capitalist nations so long as they thought they would destroy the Soviet Union. This hollowed out the conveyer belt of competent political actors and is why Kryschev came to power and was able to maintain it for his wing of revisionists (possibly the only time you'll hear me use that term unironically).

Co-ops would likely need more capital to survive, as they'll be less preemptively brutal towards their workers (themselves). This means lower rates of profit, requiring a larger scale of operation. Co-ops are often driven out of business by capitalist competition, where the organization of production is forcefully focused onto increasing profits by reducing what is paid for inputs: tools, materials, and labor. Co-ops are forced to operate in the same market and therefore risk going out of business when a competitor undercuts them in prices by 50%. This is one of the reasons that China forces the creation and maintenance of several worker co-ops and is careful about unions. They want those businesses to succeed and export, as China's strategy is to accept most forms of capitalist exploitation in order to draw productive capacity into its borders. They know that co-ops generally need help to survive.

A worker cooperative is just another business, albeit one where ownership is distributed among the workers. It still functions within the capitalist system and must follow its dictates. They start with capital, employ wage laborers, and must create profit to survive.

I mention this because really your question might as well be, "well why don't people just start more businesses to make more people employed?" The answer applies to co-ops as well: because unemployment is controlled by making it more costly to do business, forcing a need to cut costs (usually starting with labor) and often simply failed businesses. Co-ops are not free from this, they need capital to survive just like a capitalist-owned business.

The only way to free ourselves from this system is to expropriate control of the businesses and put it into workers' hands, which necessarily happens under the same conditions under which we could eliminate artificial unemployment (control of the state).

Put another way, we need to control the means of production, not be minor players still at the whims of capital.

Edit: I should probably mention that there's more to it than this but it requires getting into the weeds of Marxist theory.

Okay but increasing unemployment is meant to do exactly what this petty oligarch wants: discipline labor, preventing workers (that's us) from eking out a little more from a very lopsided economic system.

Marx referred to the unemployed aa the reserve army of labor for capital. The bourgeois use it to say: "Want safer conditions? Enough money to pay rent and go to the doctor? Tough shit, there are hundreds of people I can call on to take your job."

The unemployment rate is carefully curated by the capitalist class to prevent low rates and their worst nightmare, full employment.

The bourgeoisie are class conscious and act in their own interest. We should do the same.

Something should happen to those CEOs.

Something.

White people food

Please refer to the "respect disengagement" portion of your "remember to be human" guideline.

If I were less comfortable with myself I'd say both of you are harassing someone you keep calling a "comrade" over a harmless bit.

Please refer to Hexbear's community standards on respecting disengagement.

Disengage

Wrong

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Sounds like your party doesn't know how to organize and instead likes to (softly) gatekeep. Any competent org would've found a way to route your enthusiasm into organizing this thing and continuing the conversation.

Honestly while it's seemingly low stakes these things always make me want to take over the party with a cadre of serious people, lol.

100%.

Also the best way to unionize is in a way that mostly ignores legal protections anyways. Expect a dirty fight and come at them with better organizing, better numbers, better actions.

I hope people from the Western countries don't endorse any fascist proposition .

I've got bad news for you about the habits of people in Western countries