Gayhitler @ Gayhitler @lemmy.ml

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6 mo. ago

I don’t think that rust in the kernel is for naught or impeding progress. I think the patterns of expanding the scope of conversation to the absolutely philosophical level that some rust mailing list exchanges have done and kicking decisions up the chain or requesting a set of accommodations be made to the existing processes and methods fall broadly into the tactics outlined in the simple field sabotage manual.

I think it’s that behavior that isn’t going to get anywhere or solve problems.

I don’t think that the kernel codebase has been infected with rust. I think that especially after Linus said “sure, see what happens” to the suggestion of taking in rust work rust devs have been making tons of commits and sometimes it’s accepted, sometimes it’s rejected and often a border is created and there’s friction along it like this example.

Again, so much of the discussion around kernel mailing list exchanges excludes the context that what hellwig is talking about is not rust in the kernel at all or even r4l but a split code base.

I dealt with a c/c++ codebase once and it was beyond my meager abilities to handle both those ostensibly similar languages at the same time and I had people who were very knowledgeable in c involved with the project.

So when someone says “I think a split codebase is cancer to the Linux kernel” or “I will oppose this (split codebase) with all my energy” I’m like “yeah, that makes sense.”

I also need to clarify that I don’t think anyone is sabotaging anyone else and my intent in bringing up the simple field sabotage manual was to point out that the behaviors don’t necessarily indicate sabotage but fall into a broad category of behavior that isn’t gonna solve problems or get anywhere which is why it’s included in the manual.

I wasn’t aware it was circulating in social media recently and about fifteen years ago when I got exposed to it the main lessons to draw were not that people doing those things were active saboteurs but that those behaviors can lead to waste of energy and resources and they’re the first thing to avoid interacting with.

My exposure to and understanding of the manual was “here are some things to avoid in your own life” not “here’s how to throw a wrench into their plans!”

It’s surprising to see that statement get brought up in the news considering it’s immediately followed by a parenthetical specifically enumerating a multi language code base as the subject not rust specifically.

Iirc it’s even preceded by something to the effect of “I like rust, it’s good and there’s nothing wrong with projects that use it”.

The news coverage of kernel mailing list stuff is always so needlessly breathless.

I don’t think the ends are those of the cia, and I didn’t say that the means were either, only that they were similar to those in a famous mid century guide for those trying to halt or hijack organizations.

I don’t think the rust devs are a cia opp, before you ask. I think some rust devs and even proponents of rust who only cheer from the sidelines are sometimes behaving in ways that raise red flags. I think it’s natural and laudable that the existing devs and maintainers are alarmed by that same behavior. It’s their job.

I also think Linus position on rust has been stretched to the point of breaking and I personally find it hard to take positions seriously that distill the complex process of integrating new languages into a very old very large codebase with many full time developers into “Linus said I could”.

My understanding is that the rust code in question implemented parts of the c dma interface so that rust programs could use that instead of the c dma interface.

I’m out in the world, not sitting in front of a computer with the source open so that guess will have to do for now.

The most immediate problem with having two different dma interfaces is that now you have two maintainers and an extra step at best when making any changes.

That’s tame for the kernel mailing list lol.

The context is that hellwig doesn’t want another maintainer or deal with a split codebase in the dma subsystem which I honestly agree with.

If I were a maintainer in that position I’d be barring the doors too. It’s not a driver for some esoteric realtek wireless card or something.

Even if I didn’t agree with that position it’s normal to only post on the kernel mailing list about shit you actually care deeply about because it’s public and aside from all your fellow devs taking the time to read what you wrote, psychotic nerds like myself watch it and will try to read the tea leaves too!

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250108122825.136021-1-abdiel.janulgue@gmail.com/

Here’s the source thread.

Tldr: someone wants to put rust in the dma part of the kernel (the part that accesses memory directly)(it’s a memory allocator abstraction layer written in rust which rust code can use directly instead of dealing with the c allocator abstraction layer), is told that rust should use the extant methods to talk to the c dma interface, replies that doing so would make rust programs that talk to dma require some more code, gets told “that’s fine. We can’t do a split codebase”. The two parties work towards some resolution, then hector martin comes in and acts like jerk and gets told to fuck off by Linus.

Martin is no lennart poettering but I don’t try to see things from his perspective anymore.

It’s worth noting that Linus’ “approval” of rust in the kernel isn’t generally seen as a blanket endorsement, but a willingness to see how it might go and rust people have been generally trying to jam their code everywhere using methods that rival the cia simple field sabotage manual.

I don’t think it’s on purpose (except for maybe Martin) but a byproduct of the kernel maintainers moving slowly but surely and the rust developers moving much faster and some seeing the solution to that slow movement as jamming their foot in the door and wedging it open.

If the op has their information in emails and doesn’t want to move it somewhere else then pgp is a good way to at least secure those emails a little.

I don’t think it’s a panacea, but as methods of encrypting email go it’s widely supported enough that a person whose private information is stored in email will be able to figure something out.

The other post covered how it was the Secure Enclave not just having a cryptographic piece of silicon, but what was for a while unique to Apple shit was the use of Secure Enclave for biometric data like fingerprints and whatnot.

Yeah people affected by this would have to turn on adp (iCloud recovery key) and be vigilant about how precisely Apple chooses to remove that feature assuming the uk government doesn’t back down.

Worst case scenario you’d need to be doing local backups and have iCloud turned off.

Metadata is a bigger worry at that point though.

SMTP is only encrypted if the second server responds correctly to the first servers starttls.

The striptls type of attack, which prevents the servers from getting a valid starttls exchange, was in use over a decade ago by some telcom against its own customers.

Even if you know the person you’re emailing has a correctly configured client you can’t control a man in the middle attack between servers which has been in widespread use for years.

Mullvad us Denver 205.

I’m also using their encrypted dns though that shouldn’t matter. Recording an email might be a regulatory requirement of the intelligence sharing treaties of the eu and broader eurozone.

Try an endpoint outside of the western world and see what happens!

I think I got in before they started doing that.

Actually I don’t think they require that. I just set up a new proton account on a device with a fresh wipe from a vpn endpoint I never used before and they offered to record a phone number or recovery email but didn’t require it.

Of course, I only meant that unlike Gmail and such services like proton don’t actively impede your anonymity and build a profile on you as far as we know.

Here’s hoping Apple sticks to their guns and pulls adp instead of caving.

In case you didn’t see it a few weeks ago, 3.3 million servers are doing unencrypted transport.

The way email delivery is handled also means you’re not safe just because you aren’t talking to those servers.

It has always been like this.

The system works

https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250108122825.136021-1-abdiel.janulgue@gmail.com/

Here’s the whole thread if you wanna read for yourself.

My take away is that rust people are generally fine and try to abide by the norms of the kernel development process but Martin acts like a jerk and it would be okay if he didn’t come back.

See the comment far, far down in the thread implying that he’s somehow a more serious commenter or developer because he’s funded by donations as opposed to a company.

Anonymity and not being google or one of the other big mail providers.

Email is not an easily selfhostable service either. Modern spam filtering systems require the maintainer to jump through a bunch of hoops intended to defeat their anonymity and establish a recourse in case of problems.

I wish rust ppl would listen to the maintainers of the 30+ year old c project.

They have decades of experience maintaining and patching contributions made by people who are no longer active and the small request that those contributions be in the language of the project isn’t something to fight against.

It’s really a bummer when skilled developers fall back on stuff like “if shaming on social media doesn’t work, what am I supposed to do?”