Are you my cousin? My grandpa was mentally sharp until the very end at 96, when pneumonia also got him.

Well, it's for that exact same reason the rich will oppose socialism. Personally, I'm more in favor of georgism, which is like socialism with regards to social control of the commons (most notably land and natural resources), but not regular capital. I think this is important because there is a meaningful distinction between land and capital and shouldn't just be lumped together under "the means of production". Capital is created, where land (and natural resources) are not, thus taking social control of land via taxes works fundamentally differently economically (and morally, imo) than taking social control of capital which has been created. For example, my uni degrees are a form of capital, and a system in which society takes control of the economic returns on my education is a system which disincentives people from pursuing higher education. But if society imposes a tax on me for the land I occupy or the carbon I emit, that's completely fair imo. Plus, the key policies georgism is based on (most notably land value taxes and externality taxes) are just really good policies as shown by economics. Even Friedman begrudgingly called land value taxes the least bad tax, as they're progressive, economically efficient, and incentivize productivity and discourage rent-seeking.

I've never used Ada (I've heard great things, though), and I've only used Rust and Kotlin a little bit, but I can at least vouch that Julia and Nim are both supremely lovely languages.

It's a tie between Julia and Nim for me. Both have a high-level, readable syntax while also being natively very very fast.

Julia is great for exploratory numerical/scientific computing, e.g., AI, simulations, etc. It especially has amazing math syntax and unicode character support, making for really elegant math code.

Nim is a systems programming language, and I've been starting using it for embedded systems lately. I think it could be really good for running machine learning on embedded devices, as C/C++ are kinda miserable for that, but MicroPython is way too slow and not well suited for production embedded systems imo. Plus it compiles to C and C++, so you can compile it and run it on any device for which you have a working C or C++ toolchain.

If we taxed land, it would be essentially impossible to evade, even with fancy accounting and shell companies and all that stuff the rich love to employ. All this is exactly why the how of taxing the rich is so important.

Maybe he lives in a jurisdiction that bans abortion, and he's running the clinic because he knows it's a critical healthcare service needed by many, despite the personal legal risk he's taking on by running it.

No impropriety in supporting local sole proprietors

If I had a kid doing stem cell research at 10 years old, I'd probably be the opposite of mad, so long as they're following proper ethical and safety standards in their labwork.

We just gotta get rid of those crusty jugglers and then Sandford will be great again!

To add to this, this all burst into the news last week when some of the researchers behind LK-99 announced it just last week, and so labs around the world have been furiously trying to replicate their claimed results these past several days.

I've noticed the same thing on occasion. Exact same order, too.

I had a numerical methods class where the prof let us do the assignments in whatever language we wanted. It was nice because 1) fuck MATLAB, and 2) I'm a shill for Julia, so I got to do all my assignments in Julia. I saw on github at least one previous student for the course had done their assignments in Fortran. I suspect the vast majority did their assignments in Python, though.

You’re right; the infrastructure in the US is very car-based, which is unfortunate. In Europe (where I live), we can walk from place to place and the public transport is generally sufficient to move around (at least, for me). However, to make the switch from car-dependent infrastructure to dense, walkable infrastructure does cost a lot of money and how would that be financed? Could everything be financed by the LVT, pigouvian and severance taxes? Also, to add to your idea, I think more comprehensive and free public transport would also be a huge way to convince people to use a train instead of a car. Also add more bicycle lanes as well, for the shorter distances (< 20km).

Yes, according to the Henry George Theorem, public goods can be funded entirely by their resulting increase in LVT revenues. This paper extended the results of the HGT to congestible local public goods as well, e.g., roads, transit, education, healthcare, eldercare, childcare, museums, etc.

What if someone, who owns a house and lives in it, becomes unemployed? I mean, every landowner will have to pay land value taxes, and I assume these taxes won’t be temporarily cancelled. If someone suddenly becomes unemployed (maybe a recession or an accident which resulted in a lost limb?), they won’t have a stable income anymore and if they don’t have any saved money, they will be unable to pay LVT. What’s going to happen in this situation? While the LVT certainly does have advantages to distribute wealth more equally across society, this does seem like a problem for the poor, right? I mean, a rich person has plenty of saved money and will be able to pay LVT, but a poor person doesn’t.

I think there are two main scenarios to consider here: 1) the short-term transition period, and 2) the long-term equilibrium. In the short term, yes, there are definitely some owners of single-family detached homes who would need to move, but I think that's an unavoidable part of solving the housing crisis anyways. I don't know the situation in the Netherland, but in the US and Canada we have the issue of almost all our urban land being zoned for SFHs, and simply there is no fixing the housing crisis here without many of those being redeveloped into missing middle housing or denser. However, the beauty of LVT is it's meant to target the full rental value of the land, i.e., how much you could rent the land for on the open market. So if you find yourself unable to pay the LVT due to unfortunate circumstances, because you still possess the land, you have the option of renting out the land to pay it, and yourself renting someplace cheaper that you can afford off of UBI/citizen's dividend. After all, the LVT due is supposed to be the rental value of the land, i.e., if you can rent it for $100 a month, you pay $100 a month in taxes. Realistically, though, due to difficulty in appraising with such high degree of accuracy, I've generally seen it recommended you shoot for 85% to 100% of the rental value of land. 'Tis better to slightly under-appraise than to over-appraise.

In the long-term, I think the housing market would be vastly more affordable and people economically better off, with very few SFHs on high-value land (basically only mansions owned by the rich who can afford to bleed money on LVT payments). The reduction in evictions due to failure to pay rent would be vastly greater than the increase in evictions because of LVT, I would imagine. After all, our current system evicts you if you are no longer capable of paying, but we don't even have a UBI/citizen's dividend to help you meet those payments under extenuating circumstances such as sudden disability.

Something else that came to mind was when will the LVT be paid? Is it paid annually, monthly, or is it paid when the landowner dies? If it’s paid annually or monthly, then it could be very hard for poor people with small plots of land to pay the LVT. Also, what kind of percentage of the land value would the tax be? 10%? 20%?

This is actually an open question. I'd personally be fine with annually or monthly. I've seen proposals for paying it when the landowner dies as an option to protect pensioners. Perhaps a land value transfer tax that is applicable for certain people who qualify? Downside is any conditions like that 1) introduce significant bureaucracy, and 2) introduce an avenue by which to potentially evade the LVT. As for percentage, the idea would be to target the full rental value of the land, but even smaller land value taxes can still have benefits, just not as many. If we did a revenue-neutral shift from property to land value taxes, for instance, we'd still need income taxes, but we could still cool upward speculative pressure on land prices such as seen in the Australian Capital Territory (which has a pretty milquetoast LVT, nowhere near the full-LVT system I'm arguing for).

Thanks for all the responses again! I agree that this is a fun interaction, and this is what I love most about platforms like lemmy -- you can have random in-depth conversations about tax policy with someone on the other side of the planet.

Don’t say that to the Netherlands lol (they’ve created an entire province from the sea)

This is where it becomes semantic in that the "land" in "land value taxes" is more akin to "location". When talking about land reclamation from the sea, the reclamation would be an improvement (and thus untaxed), and it would only be the value of the location (derived primarily by proximity to businesses, services, infrastructure, jobs, etc.). Using this concept of economic land also suggest other potential types of "land" value taxes, e.g., the electromagnetic spectrum, domain names on the internet (to avoid cybersquatting), low earth orbits (because orbits can get cluttered if there are too many satellites or debris), etc.

All capital investments? If I buy Apple stock from you, I wait for the market price to increase and then sell it again. What have I contributed by doing this? I have not invested directly into a company (I bought the share from you, not from Apple itself) nor have I solved world hunger. I simply spent money, waited a bit and then earned more money. I feel like these kind of useless profits should be taxed; additionally, any dividend should be taxed as well, because in an ideal world, the profits would be invested back into the company, which leads to more innovation and an increase in wages.

Yeah, I agree this is where things get messier. There are clearly many capital investments that are productive, but many like speculative day-trading of stocks that are not. For example, it's very common in tech to pump up your profitability right before your IPO (by doing unsustainable business practices to boost revenues and cut expenses) so you and your early investors can cash out. The majority of tech startups' stocks drop after the price at IPO. It essentially leaves those who buy in at IPO holding the bag for the early investors' partially unearned profits. Where it gets sticky in this example is those profits are only partially unearned, i.e., some is legitimate returns on their investment in a productive new startup, but some is from overselling to eager and naive public investors at IPO thanks to asymmetry of information. (Asymmetrical information is a classic cause of market failure; if people don't know the true value of what you're selling them, they won't buy the optimal amount at the optimal price.)

As for solutions, I actually don't know. Is it easy or even possible for a tax to discern between the earned vs unearned profits of something like that? If we do try to solve this market failure via taxes, is it easy to evade with fancy accounting, or does it cause unintended side effects? I don't really know enough about finance to propose many solutions here. At least in theory, the purpose of a stock market is to allow anyone to invest in a company, allowing that company to raise funds for growth and reinvestment, and we certainly don't want to discourage that, but of course speculative day-trading is not good either.

I think you’re talking about (human capital)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital], and I agree with this. This is also the reason why public education is free (despite being quite expensive). Additionally, I feel like all student loans should be with 0% interest, for this specific reason.

I agree 100%. Even beyond the investment in productivity factor, education has positive externalities such as lower crime rates, better public health, fewer teenage pregnancies, and better-informed voters, hence why we should publicly subsidize it. Tax the negative externalities, subsidize the positive externalities. On the part of the student themselves, however, it still does incur an unavoidable opportunity cost, as time spent studying is time not spent working and earning money.

Do people always have to generate more wealth? Can’t they just be content with having some wealth and live happily ever after with their wealth, without the perpetuating need to create more? I feel like this is the kind of mindset billionaires have; when they have 100 billion dollars, they aren’t satisfied, because they could have 101 billion dollars. And when they got 101 billion, they’ll go for the 102 billion, etc.

I agree, and I think this is actually one thing a more Georgist system would enable. Instead of spending our "productive time" like crabs in a bucket, rent-seeking and cheating each other, if we spent our "productive time" doing productive labor and making productive investments, we wouldn't need to do nearly so much of it to achieve the same quality of life. If we had citizen's dividend/UBI, Pigouvian subsidies for things like tree-planting and other public works (with positive externalities), free education, much cheaper land + housing, and much lower barriers to business creation, I think the negotiating power between employees and employers would be leveled tremendously.

Currently, I'm working as an engineer in a niche field, which means I get good pay, good treatment, and good work-life balance. This is because it's hard to replace me, because plenty of people want to hire my skillset but not so many people have it to offer. If the average laborer had more fallback options -- like UBI, pursuing higher education, planting trees for money, etc. -- and less economic stress -- like cheaper land and housing thanks to solving the housing crisis -- I think they could naturally demand more pay, better conditions, and better work-life balance. I don't know if you saw it in the Netherland, but I know the US and Canada saw something like this with the worker shortage during and post-COVID with the "great resignation" as they called it; suddenly there were lots of people needing labor, but not as many people providing it, meaning employers had to offer better deals to the workers.

What other things wuold you tax besides land, negative external effects and severances?

Main thing is I would primarily try more forms of those basic three categories of taxes. For example, a vehicle weight tax to account for the negative externalities associated with vehicle weight (e.g., the Fourth Power Law). A hefty pedestrian/cyclist fatality tax applied to automakers every time a pedestrian/cyclist is killed by one of their cars so as to encourage designs that protect the people outside of cars, not just inside of them.

I would also be in favor of congestion pricing to tackle the issues of congestible public goods, e.g., traffic on roads. Arguably this is a form of land value tax or Pigouvian tax. (That's the beautiful thing about a lot of these taxes is they're kind of isomorphic to one another.)

In agriculture/environment, I would also be in favor of a nitrogen + phosphorus tax applied to fertilizer manufacturers to account for the externalities of fertilizer runoff. If it's practically feasible, also a severance tax on soil depletion by unsustainable agricultural practices and a carbon tax on soil carbon emissions from loss of soil carbon (also due to those same unsustainable agricultural practices).

I don't know enough about finance to personally propose taxes for it, but I'm sure one could argue for some specific taxes to address some of the previously-mentioned issues in stock speculation and IPOs.

I've seen arguments for Harberger taxes on intellectual property as part of IP reform. My personal thoughts is to just abolish patents and publicly subsidize open R&D instead, through prizes, grants, and large public projects like the Apollo Program. After all, not all R&D is suited to private development anyways, e.g., nuclear fusion, which is far too expensive and far too uncertain to be an attractive private investment. I could, however, see the argument for some form of Harberger taxes in conjunction with more IP reforms.

(continued in reply due to length limits)

Present Day

Okay, so that's enough about the past. What about now?

Well, monopolization of land and housing via the housing crisis has done tremendous harm:

In 2015, two talented professors, Enrico Moretti at Berkeley and Chang-Tai Hsieh at Chicago Booth, decided to estimate the effect of shortage of housing on US productivity. They concluded that lack of housing had impaired US GDP by between 9.5 per cent and 13.5 per cent.

In a follow-up paper, based on surveying 220 metropolitan areas, they revised the figure upwards – claiming that housing constraints lowered aggregate US growth by more than 50 per cent between 1964 and 2009. In other words, they estimate that the US economy would have been 74 per cent larger in 2009, if enough housing had been built in the right places.

How does that damage happen? It’s simple. The parts of the country with the highest productivity, like New York and San Francisco, also had stringent restrictions on building more homes. That limited the number of homes and workers who could move to the best job opportunities; it limited their output and the growth of the companies who would have employed them. Plus, the same restrictions meant that it was more expensive to run an office or open a factory, because the land and buildings cost more.

And that is just one form of rent-seeking. Imagine the collective toll of externalities (e.g., the climate crisis), monopolistic/oligopolistic markets such as energy and communications, monopolization of valuable intellectual property, etc.

So I would tend to say that — unless we change our policies to eliminate the housing crisis, properly price in externalities, eliminate monopolies, encourage the growth of free and open IP (e.g., free and open-source software, open research, etc.), and provide critical public goods/services such as healthcare and education and public transit — we are on a trajectory for AI to be Gilded Age 2: Electric Boogaloo. AI merely represents yet another source of productivity growth, and its economic spoils will continue to be captured by the already-wealthy.

I say this as someone who works as an AI and machine learning research engineer: AI alone will not fix our problems; it must be paired with major policy reform so that the economic spoils of progress are felt by all, not just the rich.

Joseph Stiglitz, in the same essay I referred to earlier, has this to say:

My analysis of market models suggests that there is no inherent reason that there should be the high level of inequality that is observed in the United States and many other advanced countries. It is not a necessary feature of the market economy. It is politics in the 21st century, not capitalism, which is at fault. Market and political forces have, of course, always been interwined. Especially in America, where our politics is so money-driven, economic inequalities translate into political inequality.

There is nevertheless considerable hope. For if the growth of inequality was largely the result of inexorable economic laws, public policy could do little more than lean against the wind. But if the growth of inequality is the result of public policy, a change in those policies could lead to an economy with less inequality, and even stronger growth.

Exactly. I work in AI (although not the LLM kind, just applying smaller computer vision models), and my belief is that AI can be a great liberator for humanity if we have the right political and economic apparatus. The question is what that apparatus is. Some will say it's an inherent feature of capitalism, but that's not terribly specific, nor does it explain the relatively high wealth equality that existed briefly during the middle of the 20th century in America. I think some historical context is important here.

Historical Precedent

During the Industrial Revolution, we had an unprecedented growth in average labor productivity due to automation. From a naïve perspective, we might expect increasing labor productivity to result in improved quality of life and less working hours. I.e., the spoils of that productivity being felt by all.

But what we saw instead was the workers lived in squalor and abject poverty, while the mega-rich captured those productivity gains and became stupidly wealthy.

Many people at the time took note of this and sought to answer this question: why, in an era over greater-than-ever labor productivity, is there still so much poverty? Clearly all that extra wealth is going somewhere, and if it's not going to the working class, then it's evidently going to the top.

One economist and philosopher, Henry George, wrote a book exploring this very question, Progress and Poverty. His answer, in short, was rent-seeking:

Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth.[1] Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society. They result in reduced economic efficiency through misallocation of resources, reduced wealth creation, lost government revenue, heightened income inequality,[2] risk of growing political bribery, and potential national decline.

Rent-seeking takes many forms. To list a few examples:

• Land speculation
• Monopolization of finite natural resources (e.g., oil, minerals)
• Offloading negative externalities (e.g., pollution)
• Monopolization of intellectual property
• Regulatory capture
• Monopolistic or oligopolistic control of entire markets

George's argument, essentially, was that the privatization of the economic rents borne of god-given things — be it land, minerals, or ideas — allowed the rich and powerful to extract all that new wealth and funnel it into their own portfolios. George was not the only one to blame these factors as the primary drivers of sky-high inequality; Nobel-prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz has stated:

Specifically, I suggest that much of the increase in inequality is associated with the growth in rents — including land and exploitation rents (e.g., arising from monopoly power and political influence).

George's proposed remedies were a series of taxes and reforms to return the economic rents of those god-given things to society at large. These include:

• Implementation of land value taxes:

Land value taxes are generally favored by economists as they do not cause economic inefficiency, and reduce inequality.[2] A land value tax is a progressive tax, in that the tax burden falls on land owners, because land ownership is correlated with wealth and income.[3][4] The land value tax has been referred to as "the perfect tax" and the economic efficiency of a land value tax has been accepted since the eighteenth century.

• Implementation of Pigouvian (aka externality) taxes, e.g., carbon tax:

A Pigouvian tax (also spelled Pigovian tax) is a tax on any market activity that generates negative externalities (i.e., external costs incurred by the producer that are not included in the market price). The tax is normally set by the government to correct an undesirable or inefficient market outcome (a market failure) and does so by being set equal to the external marginal cost of the negative externalities. In the presence of negative externalities, social cost includes private cost and external cost caused by negative externalities. This means the social cost of a market activity is not covered by the private cost of the activity. In such a case, the market outcome is not efficient and may lead to over-consumption of the product.[1] Often-cited examples of negative externalities are environmental pollution and increased public healthcare costs associated with tobacco and sugary drink consumption.[2]

• Implementation of severance taxes,

Severance taxes are taxes imposed on the removal of natural resources within a taxing jurisdiction. Severance taxes are most commonly imposed in oil producing states within the United States. Resources that typically incur severance taxes when extracted include oil, natural gas, coal, uranium, and timber. Some jurisdictions use other terms like gross production tax.

such as in the Norwegian model:

The key to Norway’s success in oil exploitation has been the special regime of ownership rights which apply to extraction: the severance tax takes most of those rents, meaning that the people of Norway are the primary beneficiaries of the country’s petroleum wealth. Instead of privatizing the resource rents provided by access to oil, companies make their returns off of the extraction and transportation of the oil, incentivizing them to develop the most efficient technologies and processes rather than simply collecting the resource rents. Exploration and development is subsidized by the Norwegian government in order to maximize the amount of resource rents that can be taxed by the state, while also promoting a highly competitive environment free of the corruption and stagnation that afflicts state-controlled oil companies.

• Intellectual property reform, e.g., abolishing patents and instead subsidizing open R&D, similar to a Pigouvian anti-tax (research has positive externalities) or Norway's subsidization of oil exploration
• Implementation of a citizen's dividend or universal basic income, e.g., the Alaska permanent fund or carbon tax-and-dividend:

Citizen's dividend is a proposed policy based upon the Georgist principle that the natural world is the common property of all people. It is proposed that all citizens receive regular payments (dividends) from revenue raised by leasing or taxing the monopoly of valuable land and other natural resources.

...

This concept is a form of universal basic income (UBI), where the citizen's dividend depends upon the value of natural resources or what could be titled as common goods like location values, seignorage, the electromagnetic spectrum, the industrial use of air (CO2 production), etc.[4]

• Funding public goods via the Henry George Theorem:

In 1977, Joseph Stiglitz showed that under certain conditions, beneficial investments in public goods will increase aggregate land rents by at least as much as the investments' cost.[1] This proposition was dubbed the "Henry George theorem", as it characterizes a situation where Henry George's 'single tax' on land values, is not only efficient, it is also the only tax necessary to finance public expenditures.[2] Henry George had famously advocated for the replacement of all other taxes with a land value tax, arguing that as the location value of land was improved by public works, its economic rent was the most logical source of public revenue.[3]

...

Subsequent studies generalized the principle and found that the theorem holds even after relaxing assumptions.[4] Studies indicate that even existing land prices, which are depressed due to the existing burden of taxation on labor and investment, are great enough to replace taxes at all levels of government.[5][6][7]

(continued)

What you're describing is essentially how society functioned for most of human history until the advent of large-scale, organized civilization. In fact, even in modern society, most family structures and friendship dynamics worldwide still use this.

Mutual aid depends upon reciprocity, the idea that I help you today on the understanding that you'll help me when I need help. But what happens when Gondor calls for aid but Rohan refuses to answer, especially despite being capable of it? Well, at a small scale (such as within families or among friends) we make a mental note to never help that particular person again, and we might even tell others that they're a selfish scumbag and not to trust them. Therein lies the disincentive to cheat: if you cheat, you will find yourself cut off from any future aid.

But humans have a fundamental limit to how many personal relationships we can maintain. In fact, this concept has a name: Dunbar's Number.

Dunbar's number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships—relationships in which an individual knows who each person is and how each person relates to every other person.[1][2]

It has been proposed to lie between 100 and 250, with a commonly used value of 150.[8][9]

So if your society/family/mutual aid group gets bigger than Dunbar's number, you stop being able to meaningfully keep track of who's a cheat, and so does everyone else. Without that, cheaters can cheat without nearly as much repercussion, which breaks down the whole system of trust mutual aid is built upon.

And that's why we now have more complex systems in modern society. Things like currency and laws to ensure fair exchange and stop cheaters. But even with all of this, we still have mutual aid in the form of our immediate friends and family. And because friends and family are a naturally select group, they'll never surpass Dunbar's number, allowing the system of trust to (mostly) function. It still sometimes breaks, of course, such as when families excuse toxic behavior so as to not rock the boat.

Exactly. Simply having enough fissile material for a bomb was a huge limiting factor for building a bomb. It took several years of refining for the US to have enough for the Trinity Test, Fat Man, and Little Boy. Any physicists in Japan at the time had to have known that fissile material was a limiting factor, given that the theoretical concept of an atomic bomb was well-known physics by the time. The second bomb was to prove Japan couldn't count on the US having exhausted all their fissile material on the first bomb.