Ferrous @ Ferrous @lemmy.ml

Posts

1

Comments

263

Joined

1 yr. ago

I'll give my shiniest nickel to whoever can tell me if and when a land tax started being enforced.

Liberals will continue to scapegoat voters because it allows them to evade hard-to-swallow truths. It allows them to use political apathy as a means to explain fascism because otherwise, they'd have to start taking hard stances on American capitalism that are not compatible with their liberal framework. I often wonder how these people think fascism arose in Germany, or in general. According to the liberal framework, Nazism arose either because Germans were not adequately "enthusiastic" about Hitler's political adversaries, because of foreign meddling, etc... Never will you hear them take the next step and start to wonder how capitlalism (and specifically capitalist crisis) gives rise to fascist movements because that would be incompatible with one of the foremost pillars of liberalism: freedom of the market. Once you start to talk about German Nazism in terms of results of the great depression, German nationalism as a result of WWI, German industrialization, historical analysis, etc... their eyes will just glaze over. As the devolution continues, we'll see them use increasingly mystical language as they waffle to explain fascism without invoking any semblance of class-based analysis. We'll see them grasp for reasons: is there a nationwide trump cult? Is it russian spies? Is it fox news? Is it Joe rogan podcasts? Is it lead from the gasoline 70 years ago? We will never see them ask what the only logical conclusion is to a settler colonial nation that was founded exclusively by 20-something, white, male, landowning, slavers for the sole reason of doing massive genocide on native Americans.

These people are watching the fascist devolution happen in real time, so they're just digging in to the Hamilton musical vibes of american exceptionalism. Once shit starts getting real bad, I fully expect them to take the scapegoating to the extreme. They'll start selling out and calling ICE on the Muslim and Arab Americans in Dearborn who refused to vote for a candidate who promised to slaughter their brothers and sisters in Gaza, Lebanon, and beyond. Since, according to their framework, these Dearborn voters who withheld votes for democrats ultimately helped usher in fascism. They'll start selling out leftists as shit gets bad - exactly as they did in fascist Germany.

All the while, Marxists have perfectly predicted not only this devolution, but they foresaw how liberals would react. Fascism os not some enigmatic, nebulous concept that comes out of nowhere, but a predictable outcome of capitalist crisis; Marxism gives you the tools not only to predict it, but to fight it.

To the liberals still removed about leftists who wouldn't vote for biden or kamala: Constituents wanted an end to genocide. Biden and Kamala ignored constituents. Biden and Kamala lost. That is how democracy works. This outcome is more American than apple pie.

Out of Trump's 35,000 hours as president, Booker expertly OBLITERATED 25 of them. Trump is done.

Strawman. Never did I say that the things you mentioned dont play a role in facilitating fascism.

Poor education, MIC, captured media, sure... all of these things facilitate fascism.

My point is that your analysis does not get at the heart of how fascism arises or why america is going full throated fascist in recent years. Why do we have poor education? Why do we have a bloated MIC? Why has our mainstream media been captured? Why is conservatism increasingly in fashion?

You're not going to get to the heart of these questions by ignoring class. You'll especially fail to answer these questions if you just blame some nebulous concept of "conservatism" wholesale. Youve correctly identified the symptoms, but you still need to take the next step w/ class-based, material analysis.

Honestly dog, this is exactly the right question. I get it. Shoutout to you for asking it. Truly.

From the liberal perspective, this is exactly how it goes. "I voted against fascism, yet fascism still festers. What gives?"

The liberal framework pushes the idea that electoralism is the be all end all form of political participation, but leftists refute this. Leftists say that you have a plethora of other tools at your disposal to express yourself politically: buy a gun, do mutual aid, join an organization, read theory, participate in local politics, etc...

If your question is earnest, I'd encourage you to read some Lenin.

Yup.

What we are seeing now is a critical inflection point for liberals: do they do honest introspection and start to apply real criticism to the history of the US, or do they cover their ears and claim Trumpism is an aberration for which they have no reasonable explanation.

To put it simply, liberals now have a choice between

"Damn, this is really the outcome of the american political project, huh? How did we get here?"

And

"Trumpist fascism is un-American, and I am clueless as to how it took hold, but I am going to continue to vote blue no matter who!"

If the amount of liberals on .world bizarrely harkening back to the "good old days" of the founders, Reagan, Obama, and even dubya is any indication, I suspect most of them have gone with the second option.

There are plenty of racists who aren't fascist. There are plenty or countries with racism problems that aren't fascist. There are plenty of dumbfucks who aren't fascist. There are plenty of illiterate countries that aren't fascist. "Stupidity" (im being careful here - i dont think illiteracy = stupid) and racism predates fascism.

Youve reached the limit of the liberal ideological framework and have resorted to explaining fascism as some sort of cultural pathology. This is what happens when your idealist politics prioritizes individual psychology and moralistic explanations over historical and economic analysis.

It's frustrating seeing liberals watch the fascist devolution in real-time, and just throw up their hands saying "well i guess americans are just stupid! QED!". It conveniently absolves them for their complicity in facilitating fascism, and it spits in the face of victims of US policy, both foreign and abroad.

No, I think you missed my point entirely. No amount of shame, facts and logic, or blasts will stop fascism.

Until regulatory agencies stop being captured, until people can own homes, until people can retire, until people can get healthcare, until people can get childcare, the fascist devolution will continue.

You're still clinging to this ultra liberal idea that the "marketplace of ideas" is what ultimately turns the wheel of history and politics. It's the idea that politics and history is driven by individuals taking ideological stances, and that the only way to change history is to change minds. This could not be more incorrect. I really encourage you to do some introductory reading into Marxism - which historically has been the greatest defense against fascism, as well as has the most comprehensive explanation of how fascism happens. Wage Labor and Capital is a great start.

For starters, understanding that American fascism is not the result of voters simply not being informed enough. The idea that, if all Trump supporters simply had access to better information, if they all had better education, if they were exposed to the right argument... then they'd see the light and turn into democrats - is a supremely liberal idea. We need to understand that no amount of epic slams, no amount of late night talk show roasts, no amount of facts and logic will steer us out of fascism.

As we devolve deeper and deeper into fascism, it has been frustrating watching liberals flail to try and understand how the devolution is happening: is it because people are uneducated? Is it because of Joe Rogan's podcasts? Is it because of Russian spies? Is it because Trump has started a cult? Is it because Fox News? Is it because lead was used in gasoline 50 years ago? Is it because we use lead water pipes? Is it because of Ronald Reagan? All of this waffling to avoid the hard questions. I.e, "is it possible that fascism is the only logical conclusion a nation which was founded solely by white landowners to do wholesale on genocide on native Americans?"

If you fail to start thinking about this devolution into fascism in terms of history, class, and material conditions, you're always going to be hopelessly confused about the structures and frameworks that allow fascism to fester.

This is the logical conclusion to "vote blue no matter who".

Lot of boomer-like fist shaking in these comments.

Newer generations are going to find different things to excel at, and they'll inevitably give up on some of the old ways.

And what would keep conservatism from sprouting once again in this scenario?

Conservatism is not the issue; the issue is capitalism. Put the capitalists against the wall.

What makes you say that? It has went over perfectly well for the Trump team, and it was honestly a huge success for them in legitimizing this push for supreme executive power.

Can anyone else think of another state whose constitution explicitly enshrines the right to enslave people?

Can't wait till I'm hunkered in my basement with a shotgun and my last cans of food, all to see a mouse run by and realize I just got infected.

You didn't really address any of my points... you've just stuck your fingers in your ears and are clinging to blind faith that the liberal order is working exactly and expected, and some higher being is going to swoop down from the clouds and magically steer us out of this fascist debacle... good luck with that. Since you're not serious anymore, I'll leave you a quote from Hitler.

“And so, I established in 1919 a programme and tendency that was a conscious slap in the face of the democratic-pacifist world. [We knew] it might take five or ten or twenty years, yet gradually an authoritarian state arose within the democratic state, and a nucleus of fanatical devotion and ruthless determination formed in a wretched world that lacked basic convictions.

Only one danger could have jeopardised this development — if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas, and not offered any resistance. Or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement.

Neither was done. The times were such that our adversaries were no longer capable of accomplishing our annihilation, nor did they have the nerve. Arguably, they furthermore lacked the understanding to assume a wholly appropriate attitude. Instead, they began to tyrannise our young movement by bourgeois means, and, by doing so, they assisted the process of natural selection in a very fortunate manner.

pointing out his lies and failures to people who may have voted for him to erode his support

What evidence do you have that this works? If anything, the last decade has demonstrably proved that this idea is false.

You can appeal to facts and logic until the cows come home, but you're not going to make a dent in his approval rating or quell fascism. This is pure liberalism: the idea that the marketplace of ideas is what ultimately turns the wheel of history - the idea that with an epic enough slam, with enough scathing blasts, with enough late night talk show hit pieces, with enough appeals to facts and logic, you can convince a fascist to reason themselves out of being fascist. Although that might work once in a blue moon, it’s not how you systematically stop fascism. Fascism thrives when material conditions for working-class people start to deteriorate, so the only way to stamp it out is either to kill the fascists or make material changes to the daily lives of working people. The dems have shown zero interest in doing either. It is pretty scary to me that your idea of "fighting injustice" ultimately just boils down to virtue signaling online about how you're so much smarter than the fascists who fail to see (or simply dont care) about Trump's hypocrisy. Liberals are getting mighty jumpy since the only recourse they have included in their poltical framework is linking politifacts on Facebook and hoping fascism magically dies.