‘Pipe down’: Biden allies step up calls for Dems to rally around president
Depress_Mode @ Depress_Mode @lemmy.world Posts 3Comments 160Joined 2 yr. ago
Depress_Mode @ Depress_Mode @lemmy.world
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Lol, that is 100% true, Dems are far right economically, and only get votes by calling their opponents far right on social issues.
Doubling down on the hypocrisy isn't going to help you. Here you are calling them far-right again. Which is it, is it a bad thing to scare up voters for yourselves by supposedly exaggerating the evils of your opponent, or something you find useful yourself? These are just empty words without anything to back them up, anyway. You haven't shown any of this or made any actual comparisons to the right, it's no more than an opinion. Why does the actual right hate Biden's economic policy if it's so far right?
This time is for real!
Why not? You've certainly not provided anything that would convince me otherwise, you've just handwaved it away. It would be hard to argue that these are not unprecedented times for a long list of reasons. We've already personally witnessed Trump's appalling presidency and we've already witnessed his attempt at a coup to forcefully stay in office. It's certainly not impossible that he'd simply try again, and it's certainly not impossible it would work this time, having learned from past mistakes. This was just 3 years ago, it's still very relevant to now.
I've been saying it should be Biden over Trump from the beginning and gave reasons for why I felt it should be so. There's no inconsistency there. You've just been calling the Dems far-right and then complaining that the Dems only get votes by calling their opponents far-right. That's hypocrisy plain as day. It doesn't matter if you spend money or not, you're still out here personally spreading the exact same message.
quickly quoted and debunked your CNN level talking points
If you say so, bud. I provided verifiable facts with links that support my stance of why Biden is the better practical choice instead of Stein or Trump. You've just been doing whataboutisms this whole time.
It is true liberals use the same arguments to elect economically right wing democrats, you keep falling for it.
You're here endlessly repeating the exact same talking points as seemingly your only persuasion, and yet you think that I fell for these arguments? Sounds like whatever political news "source" you use just makes the same talking points about the DNC instead of the GOP. If you claim that these arguments are necessary to "trick" voters, but you use them yourself to try to persuade me, then either you got tricked into supporting the Greens, or you're trying to trick me yourself.
Your refusal to vote tactically doesn't make you better or smarter than anyone else, if anything it indicates that your priorities are all out of order. It almost sounds like you hate Biden even more than Trump.
I got you to send a book right back lmao, all I had to do was call you too stupid to be able to. I wanted to see what I could write in about 10 minutes, the amount of time you said it would take to waste my vote. It was kinda fun.
If only we had politicians in the government right now calling for the end of Israeli aid. Oh wait...
Yeah, you just keep repeating the same absurdisms with no substance to help convince yourself you're above others.
You are dumb, you vote for genocide, you vote for the right, blah, blah, blah. Those are just words with nothing behind them, bud. I could say the same about you and be just as "correct" as you are. All you can do is lower yourself to name-calling because you can't think of anything intelligent to say.
You seem to be the one throwing a fit right now, so you calling me a baby is pretty rich.
Vote for another party then.
I do. One with far better chances of at least limiting disaster right now instead of pie-in-the-sky notions of the Green Party coming to solve all of our issues one day. It'll be too late by then.
Your vote ensure we move right
Certainly not when compared to the alternative of gassing it to the right under Trump. If you aren't frightened by the prospect of another Trump presidency right now, you aren't paying attention.
They can't win because no one votes for them. They peaked 20 years ago. Honestly, I'd have more respect if you were to simply eschew electoral politics altogether. That's at least a more principled stance. The Green Party isn't our savior any more than the Democrats are. At least the Democrats have a chance in this election, though, instead of some unclear future date which may never come. There are plenty of failed parties, the vast majority of which never got anywhere.
Your votes are what enables Trump to win, rather than merely exist.
That's still a worthless strategy if those people can't win right now, especially given the consequences of the right taking power. You will find yourself incapable of convincing me that Trump is worse than Biden.
Yawn.
Biden arranged a ceasefire and prisoner release and has at least discussed limiting or putting conditions on Israeli military aid, something Trump wouldn't even consider.
I'll also just leave these here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard%E2%80%93Satterthwaite_theorem
It's great that you think you're fighting the good fight by paving the way for "I'm for Israel First" Trump.
The Green Party is actually the leading cause of HIV infections in the country. Stein spits in people's food. She also hates dogs and cats. The Green Party and the National Bolshevik movement are closely linked.
If you think you've been totally reasonable this whole time, you're deluding yourself. You've just been brainlessly repeating shit like "the dems are far-right genocide encouragers." And not even elaborating. In the face of the actual far right, you sound completely nuts. It's no more true than any ridiculous nonsense off the top of my head. You're so smug you actually think you've convinced yourself that your absurd opinions are facts.
Jill Stein personally participated in and helped to cover up the Srebrenica Massacre. She steals candy from children. The Green Party personally sends out envoys to cut down our rainforests and bleach our coral reefs. They're also flat-Earthers who want to ban ice cream.
Unsubstantiated
LMAO. From our discussion so far, you don't even know the meaning of hypocrisy or unsubstantiated. The Green Party is far-right and passes far-right legislation. Sound familiar?
Ok, bud.
Wasn't after midnight for me.
No, I asked for a document comparable to the 2025 plan, go back and reread it. It's not my fault you misread and gripped to that misinterpretation for too long.
I did give links. Specific ones that actually supported what I had said. Something beyond your capabilities because you've just given a bunch of irrelevant information. So what about Obama, VPs don't authorize drone strikes. The Greens haven't helped eviction rates ones bit. Your state's local Green membership doesn't mean shit.
You love to just make crazy-ass, unsupportable statements. I'll give it a shot, too. The Greens pass far-right legislation. The Greens love to secretly do poorly on purpose because their goal is to weaken the left from the inside. Article 4 of the Green Party charter is worse than any policy ever enacted by Nazi Germany. Stein wants to launch nuclear war all over the world.
Normally quotes are usually unnecessary because the person you're speaking to can remember what they themselves said. I suppose I expected too much of you.
Your "source" was just a link to the whole constitution of the Confederacy. You didn't actually cite any specific examples to back up your point, you just said they were comparable without elaborating. Did you even read it before linking? They may be comparable in some ways, but perhaps rather different in others. It's probably arguable, but you didn't bother, so I don't know what your thought process was. It doesn't matter what it was now, but that's what citations and sources are for. What specific parts of the constitution are you referencing? Which specific parts are similar to the 2025 Plan or fascistic political ideology and what are the parallels? You've already demonstrated for me in practical terms that you don't know when to use a source or how to cite it. Your only defense is projecting your ignorance onto me. They are not for questions at all, but for statements, of which you make many unfounded and unsupported ones. If I say Ronald McDonald is actually a Mormon and when asked for proof, I simply link the entire Book of Mormon, that wouldn't prove my point at all and you'd have no idea what I meant.
Also, the CSA was really bad, right? In listing the CSA's constitution as a kind of predecessor to the 2025 Plan, you acknowledge that this is a big deal. Shouldn't that make you way more willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the plan, even if it means sucking it up and voting for a centrist if there's no other chance?
My strategy has worked about 45% of the time in the last 100 years (8/18 times) and yours has worked exactly 0% of the time. The Greens' membership fell by about 27% between 2004-2009 and has remained mostly stagnant in terms of growth since then (that's a citation, a direct or paraphrased quote from a source I used so you'd know I didn't just pull it from nowhere. You haven't done that, so I don't know the same for your state Its just the important bit, so you don't have to read the whole thing, but you are able to go find a cited quote if you feel compelled). Your strategy is failing utterly right before our eyes and all you can do to distract from it is to point at others. My strategy actually accomplishes real harm reduction because during a significant amount of the time, less extreme policies are being passed than if they were under a republican. Dems at least pump the breaks a little bit, while the Greens aren't there to pump the breaks at all. Don't worry, though, they said that they would totally have stopped the crash singlehandedly if they were there. The DNC certainly aren't the revolutionaries I wish they were, but it's obviously better than letting the right have total free reign. The Greens have never been around to effect any legislation one way or another. Your strategy accomplishes literally nothing as opposed to at least something demonstrable. Failed idealism is still failure.
You seem to be under the impression that the Green Party would stay true to their beliefs better than the DNC, but this also would appear untrue. In the few places where the Greens have won any elections, they have to compromise with the right just as the DNC does. Here they are approving a new lignite mine (very similar to coal, used in same ways) in Germany under pressure from the right and wealthy. If they wouldn't actually be capable of being much better than the DNC because of opposition, then what's the point of working so hard to build a party and letting the right take the advantage in the meantime, only for basically the same outcome? Sounds like a whole lot of wasted chances when we could have just voted for the people already doing this.
Everything you've criticized Biden for, you haven't acknowledged that Trump would be worse on all accounts, as he's already demonstrated in his presidency. The Green Party can't offer an immediate solution for that. As only one example, Trump was setting records for so many drone strikes that he stopped publishing the numbers. In his first year, Biden reduced drone strikes by 54% from Trump's final year. 100% would be better, but you'd be a fool to reject a reduction that big. That is real harm reduction. Those are families who didn't get blown up, when they would have under Trump. Biden also made it harder for the Pentagon and CIA to launch their own drone strikes.
Here's a list of inconsistent thoughts regarding your stated reasons for advocating for the Greens; criticizing the DNC for being ineffective when the Greens have little at all to point to whatsoever; criticizing the DNC for compromises with the right when the Greens would have to make those same compromises; complaining the dems get the right elected and telling people to vote for someone unelectable which only ends up helping the right by diluting votes.
You said it, voting Green really is the least one can do lmao. It might be easier to simply bring down the whole government and start from scratch than it would be to get a Green president elected anytime in the next 20 years. It took me about as long as it takes to vote Green to write this comment and the time I spent was just as "valuable" lol.
There're those baseless assertions again. It's like you double down by making a new one every time I ask for sources, or even to merely explain your thinking. Just saying something doesn't make it true, especially not when said by you lol.
What strategy exactly? How exactly has it failed? I'd argue it's worked infinitely better than your suggestion because democrats have at least been president a bunch of times and prevented the right from having those opportunities. How many Green presidents (or even house reps) have we had again?What practical pattern or information do you get from looking at past presidents? Again, cite your sources or this is just as false and ill-conceived as everything else you've said. I can back up my statement that your strategy is worthless by pointing out that the Green Party is so fringe as to never have won a national election, or even have much awareness among voters. The Green Party would have to do at least 5 times better than it has anytime in the last several elections in order to qualify for federal funding. You're even more naive than I thought if you're banking on that. It's not gonna happen anytime soon, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It's also genuinely laughable that you'd complain about democrats being beholden to moneyed interests and then suggesting the Green Party should get all of its money from the federal government, which it would also have to agree to in order to receive that money. Do you have a single consistent thought in your head?
I'm afraid your expectations for the US electoral system is much too high. This is the US we're talking about, remember? You think they'd let us have someone actually good? Bad or abjectly terrible are your options and always will be. You can say "I refuse to participate in this matter," but I don't want to hear any complaints when it turns out the worse one gets chosen for you anyway.
Congrats, you've voted for someone else. That person didn't win and the old people are still in charge, genius. Literally going back to Lincoln times, it's always been a dem or a rep. That's what I mean by no escape and all you've done this whole time is say "Nuh-uh!" based on nothing at all. You've said nothing substantive this whole time and have yet to support a single statement. This is nothing to do with loyalty and everything to do with strategy. So far you've proudly declared you have no real strategy and no real basis for your beliefs. At best, you've tricked yourself into thinking you've escaped the system, but you're sitting right here in the same sinking boat with all of us. You can try and bail water, or you can complain that a better boat wouldn't need to be bailed. Grab a bucket or jump out.
Except you often can't simply just leave an abusive relationship. You can say you're leaving, but the dems will always be there as one of only two real options; there's no escape. Just like I thought, you were just making wild, spiteful assertions without even any justification to back them up. The centrists are worse than the far-right because they're both rich? And you expect to be taken seriously with logic like that? The right is even richer and openly hates you/actively works against you.
And how exactly is a centrist leader worse than a far-right leader? That makes no sense. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's like having the choice between being in an abusive relationship where they always tell you they'll do better next time or being with someone who actually wants to murder you, and you choose the murderer because you're tired of being manipulated. No one would fault you for being tired of that, but to say that the alternative is preferable is utterly absurd. Lay out for me why Trump would be better than Biden.
Trump is far worse on all those issues. Do you want your life to be merely bad, or completely awful? It's a shitty choice, but it does actually matter. Sometimes it might feel like the answer is "I don't care anymore," but I feel like you're being careless with regard to the people who's lives would be unmistakably worse under Trump than under Biden. Not even just here, but in Palestine, in Ukraine, in Armenia, in Tigray, in Rojava, etc.
Stein is strengthening the left, because the Democrats are not left.
I don't agree because I feel a far-right Trump presidency would be much worse for the actual left than a centrist neolib Biden presidency. There's a lot riding on this; access to abortion, trans rights, environmental protections, restricting voter access, etc. I think that a Trump would probably even damage the left more than a miraculous Stein victory would help it.
In what ways is the constitution and the 2025 Plan comparable? I want examples, but I know you won't do that because you're just an edgelord who doesn't actually have anything intelligent to say. The 2025 Plan seeks to circumvent certain parts of the constitution, just so you know. Just like Stein is helping to weaken the position of the left, RFK is thankfully weakening the stance of the right. Trump would be in an even stronger position if he didn't have so much competition on the right. RFK could be a real spoiler for Trump, especially considering he's running as an independent and will appear alongside Trump on the ballot. Still no way RFK could win, though, which is why a vote for him would also be a vote wasted.
Have you thought about it for even 2 seconds? The guy who attempted a coup when he failed the election, the guy currently facing a litany of felony charges, the guy able to get republicans to attack their own capitol against democracy is just like any other GOP prez? Get real, dude, this shit is completely unprecedented. The 2025 Plan lays out exactly how the right plans to seize power forever by further packing courts, changing rules, limiting access to voters, and much more. I highly recommend you read it. It's as close to a path to actual fascism as anything the US has ever seen. Name a single comparable document in all of US history. You can just keep your head in the sand if you want, though.
The real deranged take is to say that people like Biden will get Trump elected, when Biden is literally the only contender to prevent such a thing. Your solution? Vote for a non-contender who won't even break a million votes. Yes, you've clearly thought this through. If you're willing to take this gamble, you better stay out Vegas or I'd worry you might lose your house. The other team is taking the ball and instead of doing the best bet to maybe stop them, you stand on the sidelines and protest the game itself instead. That's sure to prevent them from scoring, right? Someone else would be great, but we don't have one who comes even close to being able to win with less than a year out, now. That's just the reality. There is a 0% chance that the president won't be either Trump or Biden, so gun to your head, which would you prefer?
Sure, go ahead and lay out the evidence and the strategies for me.
Again, I've always said it should be Biden on the basis that Biden wouldn't be as bad as Trump, despite Biden's clear flaws. That's what I'm still saying. You're the one continuously criticizing the Dems for using scare tactics to get votes, and then promptly doing exactly the same for yourself by baselessly calling the Dems "far-right" over and over.
Lmao you've done nothing of the kind, you just keep giving the same insane opinions. Something like, "Biden broke the UAW strike" is a fact and literally true, well done. That's the first fact in a good while, though. It's also just one example, so here's a counter-example. Trump took SNAP from nearly 700,000 people. Something like, "the DNC are far-right" is just an opinion and not literally true. You'd have a lot more work on your hands to be convincing in that regard when the real right is salivating at the thought of gutting programs like SNAP and Social Security right now.
More handwaving. He literally already came close to stopping the certification of his failure by force and has lots of help from his team of loyal strategists. This election really is like no other.