Do you daily drive Wayland, if so since when, if not when will you?
Communist @ Communist @lemmy.ml Posts 8Comments 335Joined 6 yr. ago
Communist @ Communist @lemmy.ml
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6 yr. ago
Oh it’s because the protocol forbids apps accessing the output of other apps without special support for it, so unless apps manually include support for Wayland, it will not work.
It's no more special than what they had to do to support X...
With many apps that don’t even do anything related to screenshotting or overlays - like Guake - it still does not work.
Actually guake already works perfectly.
So most of my usual workflow is just broken by Wayland, productivity utterly shattered by some middleware crap and for what? Why?
Security, proper rendering, mixed refresh rate displays, color management, HDR, no more insane hacks, I could go on. Also, you can't actually name a way in which your productivity is actually affected.
Why? Why must the graphical protocol of all things break random software incl. accessibility, overlays etc.? No other OS has ever had this issue. No other OS finds it a security concern to allow apps to see other apps.
Other OS's DO have this issue, you have no idea the things macos has enforced, and we have backwards compatibility using xwayland, being forced to update to a new standard IS normal for operating systems, linux just delayed it for as long as possible. The problems with X11 are MUCH more vast than the problems other operating systems have.
The only reason Wayland does is because it’s just terribly designed from its very conception despite the constant warnings from other Devs and users.
Name one actual problem with the design.
Oh and then there’s the Nvidia driver support…
That's 100% nvidia's fault and almost completely resolved
Look at what they did with PulseAudio - now that’s the right way to do it, users don’t even know the difference except suddenly everything just works a bit better.
That wouldn't have worked with X11 at all, because x11 is so fundamentally broken that making a successor to X is completely actually impossible, there's a reason all the X11 devs which you believe are so brilliant for making x11 decided to switch to developing wayland, and decided that what you want is actually completely impossible while making an actually well designed desktop. Please actually look into the history of this. The people who actually know how X11 works, refuse to work on it, and for very good reason. If what you were saying was true, there would be an X12 project in the works... but there is not, because it is fundamentally awful.
Ye I know that, this isn’t the own you think it is as the GNOME Devs lost their mind long ago in many other ways as well.
It's also the default on KDE now, also, I don't understand why you seem to believe they should've rushed this out, what they did was correct, x11 wasn't going anywhere, you can still use X11, the point of wayland was to redesign things from the ground up to be as perfect as possible, and they're (slowly) achieving exactly that.
Use x11 if any of your usecases aren't met by wayland, it's not like they deleted it. But wayland is the future. They were right to make it partially non-backwards compatible, they needed to restart from scratch.
You're looking for Hyprland!
If you don't know, the fix for that is here: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/967
if you want to know my problems with manjaro, see this discussion: https://lemmy.ml/comment/9214664
It's a super problematic distro made by an insanely incompetent team, I promise you have been lucky, i've given it to many people and spent years using it, it's garbage.
Debian has implemented it. Screenshotting has worked perfectly for years, maybe half a decade at this point.
edit: I just checked, screenshotting has been working since 2015 https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/1
Debian has been using wayland by default on gnome since 2019.
This is an impressive level of confidence for someone who has no idea what they're talking about.
Also, seeing as you're the guy who doesn't even have accessibility problems, that means you have... no problems.
Remind me again, what is so bad about wayland?
It's better in just about every way, objectively, I don't really know what you're talking about here.
You have one issue, accessibility, what other flaws do you see with the wayland protocol?
Why do you think it is that none of the people who worked on the X protocol would agree with you that wayland is worse in any way?
What specifically do you think is worse?
Why do you think literally every single desktop project is switching to wayland with no plans of implementing a different protocol, ever?
I feel like your version of reality is completely imaginary.
here's some things that will never be fixable in x.org
- Recording all of your activity is extremely easy for a malicious program
- Multiple displays with mixed refresh rates that aren't clean multiples of eachother
- Color management/hdr
- Rendering (try resizing something and notice all the garbled nonsense)
- Proper scaling support
There's more.
I've developed an install alias that automatically configure a wide variety of things really easily for arch, I had a bunch of people use my setup and logged the usage of each different keybind, then sorted them by most used and put those on the strongest fingers
I've spent more than a few hundred hours configuring stuff, you can check it out here if you want:
It is on hyprland and kde, if that helps
Does input-leap help?
What doesn't work?
Why not just make a new protocol for what you need, rather than throwing out everything?
Global hotkeys work in kde wayland and hyprland!
Ah, there's your problem, manjaro is pretty much fundamentally broken.
see this discussion: https://lemmy.ml/comment/9214664
It's just a stream of incompetent mistakes with them, if you ever do a reinstall, consider anything else, you'll have a better experience guaranteed.
Global shortcuts and screenshare are supported fully...
also the places where a newsworthy leak would happen do not use x11 and/or carefully vet their software. The average user should not need to do that, it would be bad design to make them
That is NOT classical security thinking AT ALL, and anybody who told you that is lying to you. Classic security thinking says minimize the surface area of attack...
...I'm sorry but your core argument seems to be "it's okay that clients can do literally whatever they want because if you run anything proprietary you should be using windows" and I don't understand this all-or-nothing stance. Do you expect me to vet every line of code that runs on my PC to make sure it's safe? Do you think everyone should do that? Do you think the operating system should be designed so that grandmas are required to read code before they install software?
I'm sorry but this is just so obviously terrible design, I don't know how you think gatekeeping solves anything, and that seems to be all you're doing. Shitty clients shouldn't be able to wreck peoples lives/computers, and we should minimize the amount of damage shitty clients can do. You also seem to believe that everyone is cognizant of the fact that they've been infected with something, in reality, you will go months or even decades without knowing you've been hit in some cases, we should minimize the amount of damage that can cause, not give them full access to everything on the entire pc because you think we should check every piece of software that runs.
There aren't newsworthy breaches involving x.org because it's widely regarded as not to be trusted, and has been for so long that nobody uses it for anything that needs security.
Flatpak is great and has a verification system so you know when the app is by the developer... It's sandboxed so the clients can't do as much damage, this is significantly easier for users to manage and prevents terrible things while not limiting anybodies usecase and allowing apps to be packaged for every distro at once. That's pretty awesome, actually, and you can use different repos if you don't trust flathub, i'm sure once flathub does something bad there will be alternate "more secure" ones.
Either way, I don't want to live in the world where you make the choices for software, it seems like you want a world where everyone needs a license to use their computer.
Message me on matrix if you want help setting all of that up, but waybar absolutely supports clicking tray icons.
You should switch if you value any of the following:
- Security
a. Any x11 client can record your screen without notifying you
b. Any x11 client can record all of your keystrokes without notifying you
- Better configuration
a. Tighter integration with input/output configuration, which results in things like per-input settings are very difficult to do on X11, I have a mouse that only works on one screen and another mouse that works on all my screens, which makes it so that I can have my TV pointed away from my desktop and use a wireless mouse and never lose the position of my cursor while still keeping my other displays active, for example
b. You can't modify mouse sensitivity on x11 (except in a hacky way with acceleration)
c. After switching to sway I just noticed so many hacks that I configured went away.
- Significantly better rendering
a. x11 can't support monitors with mixed refresh rates because how it handles rendering is fundamentally flawed
b. on x11 most animations are fundamentally broken (try resizing) because of how rendering is handled, check out the animations on hyprland and how smooth they are, that's not something that can be done on x11 for a low performance overhead
c. so many scaling problems, native wayland apps work perfectly in this regard nowadays.
- color management/HDR
What distro/DE are you using? I don't have that problem nor have I heard of anyone having that problem
input-leap
this software has wayland support already https://github.com/input-leap/input-leap/issues/109
Guake works perfectly if the global shortcuts protocol has been implemented, and even if it isn't it only takes a minute to setup
is that your only thing?
I can show you how to set it up if you'd like, it's incredibly easy