Communist @ communist @lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz

I'm an anarchocommunist, all states are evil.

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1 yr. ago

I have, I simply disagree with your conclusions.

No, the machine will and so would a conscious one. you misunderstand. This isn't an area where a conscious machine wins.

Tell me, if consciousness prevents this, why did humans do it?

These have been listed repeatedly: love, think, understand, contemplate, discover, aspire, lead, philosophize, etc.

these are not tasks except maybe philosophize and discover, which even current models can do... heck google is using old shitty ones to do it...

https://deepmind.google/discover/blog/alphaevolve-a-gemini-powered-coding-agent-for-designing-advanced-algorithms/

I said a task, not a feeling, a task is a manipulation of the world to achieve a goal, not something vague and undefinable like love.

We want a machine that can tell us what to do, instead.

theres no such thing, there's no objective right answer to this in the first place, it's not like a conscious being we know of can do this, why would a conscious machine be able to? This is just you asking the impossible, consciousness would not help even the tiniest bit with this problem. you have to say "what to do to achieve x" for it to have meaning, which these machines could do without solving the hard problem of consciousness at all.

yet again you fail to name one valuable aspect of solving consciousness. You keep saying we need the hard problem of consciousness solved for agi but can't name even one way in which it provides a functional improvement to anything.

Why do you expect an unthinking, non-deliberative zombie process to know what you mean by “empower humanity”? There are facts about what is GOOD and what is BAD that can only be grasped through subjective experience.

these cannot be grasped by subjective experience, and I would say nothing can possibly achieve this, not any human at all, the best we can do is poll humanity and go by approximates, which I believe is best handled by something automatic. humans can't answer these questions in the first place, why should I trust something without subjective experience to do it any worse?

When you tell it to reduce harm, how do you know it won’t undertake a course of eugenics?

because this is unpopular, there are many things online saying not to... do you think humans are immune to this? When has consciousness ever prevented such an outcome?

How do you know it won’t see fit that people like you, by virtue of your stupidity, are culled or sterilized?

we don't, but we also don't with conscious beings, so there's still no stated advantage to consciousness.

You don't understand the claims you're making if you can't explain them. Try again this time actually explaining yourself rather than just going "some guy said I'm right", you keep doing that without engaging with the discussion, and you keep assuming the guy verified your claim when they actually verified an irrelevant one.

That's just because there are no consistent set of axioms for human intuition. Obviously the best you can do is approximate, and I see no reason you can't approximate this, feel free to give me proof to the contrary but all you've done so far is appeal to authority and not explain your arguments.

Jobs are not arbitrary, they're tasks humans want another human to accomplish, an agi could accomplish all of those that a human can.

For instance, people frequently discuss AGI replacing governments. That would require the capacity for leadership. It would require independence of thought and creative deliberation. We simply cannot list (let alone program) all human goals and values. It is logically impossible to axiomatize our value systems. The values would need to be intuited. This is a very famous result in mathematics called Gödel's first incompleteness theorem

Why do you assume we have to? Even a shitty current ai can do a decent job at this if you fact check it, better than a lot of modern politicians. Feed it the entire internet and let it figure out what humans value, why would we manually do this?

In other words, if we want to build a machine that shares our value system, we will need to do so in such a way that it can figure out our values for itself. How? Well, presumably by being conscious. I would be happy if we could do so without its being conscious, but that’s my point: nobody knows how. Nobody even knows where to begin to guess how. That’s why AGI is so problematic.

humans are conscious and have gotten no closer to doing this, ever, I see no reason to believe consciousness will help at all with this matter.

A job is a task one human wants another to accomplish, it is not arbitrary at all.

philosophy, politics, science are among the most important non-family-oriented “jobs” we humans do. They require consciousness.

i don't see why they do, a philosophical zombie could do it, why not an unconscious AI? alphaevolve is already making new science, I see no reason an unconscious being with the abilty to manipulate the world and verify couldn't do these things.

Plus, if a machine does what it’s told, then someone would be telling it what to do. That’s a job that a machine cannot do. But most of our jobs are already about telling machines what to do. If an AGI is not self-directed, it can’t tell other machines what to do, unless it is itself told what to do. But then someone is telling it what to do, which is “a job.”

yes but you can give it large, vague goals like "empower humanity, do what we say and minimize harm." And it will still do them. So what does it matter?

The existence of black holes has a functional purpose in physics, the existence of consciousness only has one to our subjective experience, and not one to our capabilities.

if I'm wrong list a task that a conscious being can do that an unconscious one is unable to accomplish.

You've arbitrarily defined an agi by its consciousness instead of its capabilities.

Most people can’t identify a correct mathematical equation from an incorrect one

this is irrelevant, we're talking about something where nobody can tell the difference, not where it's difficult.

What is “economically important labor”? Arguably the most economically important labor is giving birth, raising your children, and supporting your family. So would an AGI be some sort of inorganic uterus as well as a parent and a lover? Lol.

it means a job. That's obviously not a job and obviously not what is meant, an interesting strategy from one who just used "what most people mean when they say"

That’s a pretty tall order, if AGI also has to do philosophy, politics, and science. All fields that require the capacity for rational deliberation and independent thought, btw.

it just has to be at least as good as a human at manipulating the world to achieve its goals, I don't know of any other definition of agi that factors in actually meaningful tasks

an agi should be able to do almost any task a human can do at a computer. It doesn't have to be conscious and I have no idea why or where consciousness factors into the equation.

Being able to decide its own goals is a completely unimportant aspect of the problem.

why do you care?

If there's no way to tell the illusion from reality, tell me why it matters functionally at all.

what difference does true thought make from the illusion?

also agi means something that can do all economically important labor, it has nothing to do with what you said and that's not a common definition.

If it quacks like a duck it changes the entire global economy and can potentially destroy humanity. All while you go "ah but it's not really reasoning."

what difference does it make if it can do the same intellectual labor as a human? If I tell it to cure cancer and it does will you then say "but who would want yet another machine that just does what we say?"

your point reads like complete psuedointellectual nonsense to me. How is that economically valuable? Why are you asserting most people care about that and not the part where it cures a disease when we ask it to?

Hilarious chaos is widely regarded as a nazi server, so it has a lot of defeds, they post a lot of antitrans content and it's not against the rules, you may want to try another instance.

A philosophical zombie still gets its work done, I fundamentally disagree that this distinction is economically meaningful. A simulation of reasoning isn't meaningfully different.

Consciousness is entirely overrated, it doesn't mean anything important at all. An ai just needs logic, reasoning and a goal to effectively change things. Solving consciousness will do nothing of practical value, it will be entirely philosophical.

Tbh would happen with high compute agi as it could then create low compute tendrils.

It's not pointless it's just significantly less effective.

If you don't like the gaming stuff try aurora, feel free to message me on matrix.