BraveSirZaphod @ BraveSirZaphod @kbin.social

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2 yr. ago

I mean, sometimes, yes. That is how war works.

People don't generally kill people for shits and giggles. They do it because they think something is so important that it's worth killing for. The tricky bit is of course that people tend to argue quite a lot about what falls in that category.

No one would criticize you if, when defending yourself from a random attacker, you accidentally pushed him off a ledge and he fell to his death, or even if you intentionally did it to save yourself.

War tends to be more complicated than that, but the vast majority of people can find some ends that will acceptable justify quite a lot of means.

The pollster is an Palestinian group based in Ramallah.

In 2002, which he then retracted.

He is a piece of shit, to be clear, but his words also have exactly zero legal relevance in the IDF, so, while certainly objectionable, that isn't what I actually asked for, which was evidence the IDF actually regularly performs sexual violence.

I'm sure Hamas' religious authorities aren't exactly spreading love love peace peace either, not that that matters.

I'd personally say no. Perhaps this is a privileged mindset, but I don't think there are any circumstances that justify the intentional murder, torture, and rape of random civilians.

I can certainly understand how that mindset would evolve given the circumstances - living your whole life oppressed by a foreign government with no real opportunities could easily lead you to dehumanize anyone associated with that nation - but it doesn't excuse it. I'm sure plenty of Jews after the Holocaust wanted to murder every German they saw, and again, while I would understand that mindset, it wouldn't excuse the behavior.

And even on a pragmatic level, devolving down into our baser instincts just means that whoever has the most guns wins, and that certainly isn't the Palestinians. Whether it's just or not - and I'd generally say it's not - there exists no path of violent resistance that leads to an independent thriving Palestine, no matter or fair or unfair one might think that is.

And that comparison is flawed, because there is a fundamental difference between a systematic effort to murder a population and a careless disregard for collateral damage during military operations.

Both are shameful; only one is a genocide. If you broaden the meaning of genocide to refer to any war operation that fails to sufficiently protect civilians, you've suddenly labeled most of military history as genocidal.

The bombing of Dresden was horrific, but it was not comparable to the literal Holocaust happening at the same time.

And you're referring to land seizures that happened even earlier, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

Pragmatism is definitely playing a role, but I think for some of the (relatively) more principled ones, they do simply see it as a matter reserved for the states and past that point, the states can do as they like.

No one with an adult’s understanding of the world who has condemned Israel’s response didn’t also condemn Hamas after Oct 7.

This doesn't appear to actually be true, unless you mean to imply that a majority of Palestinians don't have an adult's understanding of the word. Don't get me wrong though, this in no ways provides just cause to target civilians.

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf

The majority of (59%) strongly supported or (16%) supported to some extent the October 7 attacks carried by the Hamas-led factions, while 16% supported to some extent [sic]. 11% reported that they neither supported nor opposed the attack, while 13% expressed opposition to the attacks. Strong support for the attacks was notably higher among Palestinians in the West Bank (68%) as compared to Gaza (47%).

That said, I'm not surprised conditions in Israeli prisons are very poor, though they're unfortunately not remotely alone in the global context in that. It's also worth noting that the Israel Prison Service is independent from the IDF and operates under a completely different ministry. I'm not saying that it's not horrendous, because it is, but it doesn't rise to the same severity in my mind. I do genuinely appreciate you providing an actual source though; I certainly don't think Israel is any angel.

Yes, because there is no higher authority to appeal to. The SCOTUS doesn't have jurisdiction over purely internal state law unless they want to claim that it violated the US Constitution. And again, if the SCOTUS wanted to establish fetus personhood, they already had the perfect opportunity to do that.

Well, this isn't about the Supreme Court of the United States, so thankfully, they're not relevant at all. This will actually be seen by the state Supreme Court, which just recently got a liberal majority. Also, SCOTUS could have easily done that during the Dobbs ruling if they really wanted to.

Please consider doing a milligram of research before speaking.

I don't think the domestic support is really there, but America plopping a single carrier group off the coast of Venezuela would send more than strong enough a message. and we could eradicate any invading force in minutes.

Ideally, Guyana is able to request aid from an international coalition, and the US can act in that capacity rather than be seen as unilaterally playing world police again.

I wish this were true - that most people don't care about this and just want peace - but I think evidence is continuing to show that the reality is a bit messier. Here's some recent polling data from Gaza and the West Bank (though it should be strongly noted that polling in these places is very hard)

https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf

the majority of (59%) strongly supported or (16%) supported to some extent the October 7 attacks carried by the Hamas-led factions, while 16% supported to some extent [sic]. 11% reported that they neither supported nor opposed the attack, while 13% expressed opposition to the attacks. Strong support for the attacks was notably higher among Palestinians in the West Bank (68%) as compared to Gaza (47%).

The most positively appraised of all actors were the Al Qassam Brigades, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Brigades, and Hamas.

It does feel disturbing to me that such a small number of Palestinians looked at the October 7th massacres and felt that they were wrong. It's tempting to believe that most people abhor violence and support non-violent paths towards peace, but I don't think the evidence really shows that.

I don't know what polling looks like in Israel, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's equally depressing. I think the main takeaway is that no one is really interested in moving towards peace.

I'd love to see your evidence that the IDF regularly employs sexual abuse as a tactic. I'll wait.

Edit: I'm interpreting each downvote as an admission that you couldn't find evidence, but I'd love to be proven wrong! We do care about facts and the truth here, no?

Oh, so they're intending to return all revenue raise from Guyana's oil back to Guyana's people, just out of the kindness of their hearts? That's awfully nice of them.

It blows my mind that anyone with a brain buys this stuff, especially given that Guyana's ruling party is literally socialist themselves.

A huge amount of Israel's land was legally purchased during the late Ottoman era and the later British Mandate. We have plenty of records.

Well, you never saw an attack of this scale in the West Bank, where the IDF does have an extremely thorough presence. And you never saw this happen before the IDF withdrew from Gaza.

So, yes, you have sarcastically arrived at a true solution. Well done.

If you think anything happening is remotely comparable to the Holocaust, you don't know anything about the Holocaust. If Israel was trying to exterminate Palestinians the way the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews, Gaza would be a sheet of right now.

I also don't have the right to vote in Israel, which makes sense, seeing as I don't live there and I'm not a citizen. I weirdly don't have the right to vote in Germany or Russian either.

I was wondering how long it would be before we got "No true socialist!", thank you.

I don't think any of the people involved in the Nakba are alive anymore, beyond perhaps a few dinosaurs in nursing homes.

I'll be the first to admit that the founding of Israel was a disastrously messy process that, frankly, probably shouldn't have happened, and certainly shouldn't have happened the way it did. But the fact of the matter is that it happened, Israel is here now, and there are generations of Israelis that have known no other home (most of whom are not of European heritage, it should be said).

I'd agree that there were very real historical wrongs that need to be accounted for, but that won't happen with the Israeli right dreaming of eliminating all Palestinians or Palestinians hoping to eliminate all Jews and destroy Israel. A random Israeli civilian living near Gaza is no more responsible for the Nakba than a random American today is for the ethnic cleaning of the Americas, and there is absolutely no pretense for random violence against them (just as there is zero pretense for West Bank settler violence against Palestinians).