2y ago

The Fediverse is working just as intended.

I used to think that there would be 1, main 'Fediverse' with all of the 'big instances' connected to each other. The recent Threads debacle has shown me otherwise.

The point of the Fediverse is that there is no one single entity, or group of entities, dominating it all.

Right now it feels like whatever the big instances do, we kind of have to go along with to be a part of anything. As the Fediverse grows, there will be more options to suit different types of users.

I think it's fine if big instances federate with Threads and it's fine if they don't. People can just join instances that align with what they want. It's not like defederating means being cut out of the Fediverse, that's not possible.

Great design. I'm eager to see how it plays out.

94 comments

The most reasonable solution I’ve seen so far, from the pixelfed and pixelfed.social creator
https://mastodon.social/@dansup/111617703110836835
- Not the solution I was hoping for but it's an extremely reasonable compromise. I've never heard of selective authorized fetch. Pretty sure he just invented it.
  
  FOSS ingenuity at work. All it needs is adaptation and adoption.
  
  Authorised fetch has been a thing on Mastodon and I believe Akkoma too. I don't know if Pleroma, Soapbox or Misskey have it though.
- For the lazy:
  After some careful consideration, I have decided to block threads.net on pixelfed.social and .art by default
  However, users will have the ability to unblock the domain
  Soon we will be selectively enforcing authorized fetch for accounts with domain blocks so as to provide the best of both worlds.
  (I'm also shipping a command for :pixelfed: admins to easily add user domain blocks for all local users)
  I'm eager to hear your feedback!
  PR: https://github.com/pixelfed/pixelfed/pull/4834
- That's a good solution. Keeps the all feed clear of threads content while allowing users to opt in
- I'm pro federate, but honestly, this seems fair. However Lemmy wouldn't need it, as to see a threads post on lemmy, the person would have to @ the lemmy community in their post.
  
  All true, and making this a feature would simply be implementing the inverse of the new capability… overriding an instance level block instead of imposing one not already at the server level.
- Jerry Bell did it first!
  https://infosec.exchange/@jerry/111591446262881196
  
  Good to see more reasonable people in all of this.
- Did Dan ever get the messaging service Sup going? Tried to look it up, but his name being Dansup is throwing a wrench in my Googlefu.
  
  @supapp@pixelfed.social
  Releasing in beta soon!
Yeah. And now that we have account migration we can switch more easily.
- Unless you want content and more people to interact with.
  Like, people keep saying "oh yeah you can jump instances" as if that wasn't possible on Reddit. You could go to different subs or make your own. But what good were most of them? As long as there's a "default", a main "hub", people will go there, and that's where everything will be happening. The alternatives and smaller instances will be starved out.
  Centralization is not about the software, it's about the people. Users centralize where others are. So when the big hubs are allowing threads to poison the well, it's poisoning the thing most people want to drink from, and the thing new visitors will be most likely to drink from.
  Threads represents something that a lot of people came to the fetiverse to escape. If threads wants to join, fine, but I believe it is in the best interest of all of us if there is a large alternative "cluster" that is separate from it rather than being tied up with it.
  A separate galaxy in the fediverse, that says in big red neon lights, "Get your corporate bullshit away from us. This is our space, for people, not for you to make money." And if we let them in immediately, it becomes increasingly difficult for that galaxy to retain that identity.
  And I'll just gently point out that once Threads joins, separating from it will not be easy because you will have Threads users here actively pushing back on the separation.
  
  I see you really care about the fate of "the others". I don't know. Maybe that's the right reaction but if the people who came here bacause of threads or from threads will disappear again I think I won't bother much. I liked it here with even less people around so I don't really care how many thousand users we have. Fact is the decentralized internet and ActivityPub are the future and there will always be a way.
- Well not technically yet. LW is still on 0.18.5
Finally someone gets it!
I'm out of the loop
Last thing I vaguely remember about a defederation incident was honeybear or something like that upsetting everyone
- Essentially, Facebook's Twitter competitor Threads is gearing up to join the fediverse by integrating ActivityPub into their platform. Don't take my word too much on this but I believe this is due to the European Commission's Digital Markets Act which requires interoperability (similar to how iOS now requires sideloading in the EU). This is essentially their cheap way of complying.
  The fediverse has a strong hatred of Facebook, for various reasons (from petty things like "embrace, extend, extinguish" to much more serious things like Facebook's compliance in the Myanmar genocide) and a "pact" was enacted of fediverse instances that are simply outright blocking Threads. Part of it is the fear that Facebook will federate its moderation problem and cause a headache (which, in my opinion, would be better dealt with by limiting Threads to followers only - Mastodon and Pleroma allow this).
  Opponents of the Fedipact are optimistic this will help a more mainstream audience warm up to the fediverse. The fediverse has a reputation of being unwieldy and complicated to newcomers, and having a major platform like Threads integrating ActivityPub might help bring them in and see what it's like. Toxicity is cited as a reason for defederating Threads, but IMO I see more toxicity towards newcomers and outsiders coming from the people already on the fediverse, so I've been quite apathetic to the Threads thing.
  
  Yeah I'm in a wait and see with my instance. People act like it's one and done. When they start they'll be just another server to me. If they start becoming hostile and everything coming from them it's terrible then I'll defederate. Same as any other server.
  People are worried about data being misused but, I'm sorry, that's what happens when we publish to an open protocol. Anyone can use it however they want, and yeah, they're are scum usage for it
- Hexbear.
  
  I feel like honeybear suits them better. They seem sweet like honey in how they support minorities and protected classes, but then they support viciously genocidal dictatorships like Russia and China
- The controversy you are referring to is regarding specifically .world defederating Hexbear "preemptively" before the latter could federate with anyone, out of fear that the "annoying tankies" may overrun everyone else. Since Hexbear is a relatively small platform run by volunteers like .world is, and the basis on which the defederation was justified was shaky at best, a lot of users raised an eyebrow. There was a similar move by .world later on where they defederated from Lemmygrad, another "tankie" instance, due to alleged hate speech of which the admins failed to provide a single example, and it was clear as day that .world admins just wanted some excuse to defederate away "the evil communists".
  In this case, the situation is different, because it involves a lot more than just .world. A large, for-profit instance Threads, run by Meta, is opening up to ActivityPub, and people are afraid of the reasonable possibility that Meta is attempting to either destroy or absorb the Fediverse as a whole. Besides the shitty corporate attempts in the past, Threads is also overrun by a lot of algorithm induced hate speech and far-right extremism, and there is a legitimate concern that this will spread to instances that federate with Threads.
  Hexbear (and others like Lemmygrad) are different in that they are still part of the Fediverse, they are run by volunteers like most instances, and remain federated with other large instances such as lemm.ee. But the fact that hate speech is rampant in Threads yet .world admins want to "wait and see" make the Lemmygrad defederation even clearer and funnier in retrospect, lol. I complained back in the day when Hexbear was defederated that I'd rather let users choose for themselves whether they wanted that or not, and I got told to go to another instance. Now that we are federating with Threads anyway, might as well do that.
  Edit: Typos
  
  You don’t have to look far on hexbear or lemmygrad to find people cheering on the murder of Israelis on October 7th or denying genocides like the Holodomor so I’m not sure what you’re talking about when you say neither instance is hateful. Meanwhileongrad is full of screenshots of ridiculous hateful bullshit.
  Edit: I might add that they’re extremely ban happy and yet would cry when their rants were deleted or when they received bans for spamming on other instances. Blatant double standard. Shit, I’ve had comments deleted for “hate speech” from Lemmy.ml for saying that Hamas and Iran are a big part of the problem in the Middle East.
  
  Threads is also overrun by a lot of algorithm induced hate speech and far-right extremism
  Pretty sure you’re confusing Threads for Twitter. Threads doesn’t contain any more of that than lemmy or mastodon already does, and it’s probably less, so such handwringing is overstated. They’ve already implemented a “Restrict” setting in addition to blocks and mutes, and frankly their handling of blocking and how people can interact with your account after being restricted or blocked is already more effective than what’s here or on mastodon.
- Most instance admins are federating with Threads/Meta. Even if you block the instance yourself, it doesn't prevent you from seeing Threads users' comments and the hate, harassment, and extremism on that platform from spreading throughout federated instances.
  
  Most instance admins are federating with Threads/Meta.
  Not on Lemmy. Sort this Fedipact list by software and choose Lemmy to see this.
  
  That’s not even remotely true . If you block the instance it prevents your content from being shared with the blocked domain and you do not view content from that domain.
there is no one single entity, or group of entities, dominating it all.
This is what Zuck wants to change with Threads.
- It's not. He wants to create a social media that exploits its users without being accused of monopolistic behaviour.
  
  All the tasty data collection and surveillance with none of the calories.
- But the fact they can just defederate makes it much harder.
  
  How does defederating make it harder?
Edit: Since so many people are misinformed: No, blocking Threads on an individual basis is not a solution. This only blocks posts from Threads showing up in your feed. It does not block Threads users' comments from spreading hate and extremism throughout federated instances, and lemmy users will still be subject to potential harassment from Threads users. (See the harassment of the LGBTQ+ community on Threads for examples...)
Here's a comment of mine that states my argument against federating with Threads.
Also, I was not trying to debate the issue here. I was looking for recommendations for alternative instances... I'd appreciate anyone actually responding to my comment.
Original comment: Anybody have recommendations on a decent instance that won't be federating with Threads? Maybe one that allows community creation but isn't full of tankies?
I'm jumping ship from .world if they go through with federating with Threads. Such a shame to see the effort put into building this great instance come undone.
This place decided to disregard what the majority of their users want and turn the neighborhood to shit way faster than reddit. I thought we'd at least have a couple years before instance admins started selling out to such a shitty company that's going to make the fediverse a less safe place for their users.
Meta will also do anything they can to EEE and I'm not convinced the fediverse is as invulnerable to such exploitation as some users seem to be.
- I was looking for recommendations for alternative instances… I’d appreciate anyone actually responding to my comment.
  OK.
  Largest Lemmy instances blocking Instagram Threads are (according to fedipact.veganism.social) lemmy.ml, lemm.ee, lemmy.ca, Hexbear, feddit.de, Beehaw, Lemmygrad, lemmy.dbzer0.com, lemmy.blahaj.zone, discuss.tchncs.de, sopuli.xyz, aussie.zone, feddit.nl, lemmy.zip, midwest.social, feddit.uk, mander.xyz, ...
- Just because Lemmy.world doesn’t agree with about defederating with meta doesn’t make them sell outs. Like you said, you are jumping ship; just like the fediverse intended.
  For better or worse, Lemmy.world is intended to be a catch all instance for normies so it makes sense why they would not defederate from meta.
  
  I disagree that they aren't selling out.
  I consider it to be as such when this move isn't supported by most of their userbase, they misframe that blocking Threads is a viable solution for the rampant issues with hate/extremism, and the decision puts their users at risk (both in the form of extremism/harassment and exploitation by Meta).
  It's an inch towards becoming mainstream, but the costs outweigh the benefits IMO. I believe it's hypocritical to defederate from exploding heads and then turn around and federate with Threads.
  I think misleading users into believing they can block Threads (only the posts), making a decision against the majority of their community's wishes, and instead subjecting them to potential harassment, misinformation and exploitation is selling out.
- Can’t you block threads yourself once .world updates to 0.19.0?
  
  That's such a misinformative false 'solution' people keep peddling..
  No, blocking Threads on the individual user level does not stop comments made by Threads users from showing up on federated instances, even for users who block Threads.
  That means users who block Threads will still see hate/extremism and are still subject to potential harassment by toxic Threads users.
- There are lots of hypotheticals here.
  I expect the lemmy.world admins to block servers that are frequent sources of hate and extremism. I don't expect them to speculatively block servers because some people guess they might be. I'm pretty skeptical that a majority of users want preemptive blocking. I don't, and the votes and comments I see in most conversations on the subject suggest that's a position held by a very loud minority.
  I'm not sure Threads users will be all that interested in interacting with Lemmy. It's an awkward UX to participate in Lemmy conversations from Mastodon, and I believe Threads has essentially the same format. Threads is likely to have a bigger impact on Mastodon servers, and I don't think any of us can reliably predict what that impact will be yet.
  
  I disagree on user support. Look at the posts heavily discussing the matter, and also pay attention to the vote counts.
  Also, it's not a hypothetical when there is already a systemic issue and the company has a notorious history. Look at my comment here for my fleshed out argument on this subject with citations.
  I wasn't intending on debating the issue here; I was only looking for recommendations on alternative instances.
- In a Mastodon level this is not true. Blocking Threads.net prevents you from sharing your content with them and for their content to show up. Pixelfed has also enabled user level Authorised fetch which will prevent Threads.net from attempting to fetch that users content
  
  That's good to know. Thanks.
- Would you create a community, and if so, what kind?
  
  I created !vans@lemmy.world and have been planning on trying to revive my efforts to grow the community, but I'm sure hell not doing that if Threads is being incorporated. I'm instead going to strip the community of all of the content I posted.
  I also want to create a community for my city, but I'm never going to do that on an instance that allows Threads/Meta incorporation. Also have wanted to recreate r/OldSkaters from reddit.
  If I wanted to deal with Meta, I'd make an account on one of their privacy/rights-infringing platforms.
  As established already, blocking Threads does not block user comments from showing up. Even if it did, I still would not host a community on an instance federated with Threads unless there was a way for the communities themselves to fully block Threads interaction.
  But the only way to fully block Threads is by defederating from it.
- I don't get, even if you are part of .world and they are federated with threads.
  Can't you just personally block all threads?
  You personally can defederate without it affecting anyone else.
  
  No, that's a half-measure at best... It only blocks Threads posts from showing up in your feed. It does not block Threads users comments from showing up on federated instances, even if the individual user personally blocks them.
  I am legitimately fearful for LGBTQ+ users, as their community members have already been harrased on Threads by the far-right.
- Nothing ever stopped you from creating you own instance. With blackjack and beers.
  
  Except for time, money, and technical knowledge...
  Also *blackjack and hookers!
Same. So what if someone doesn't want to federate/defederate, but I don't think people should be hassling admins to defederate
- You can always, as a client, block individual instances in your settings
I agree, the original idea of the fediverse is awesome. However, I believe the big players will decide almost everything about it in the end, simply due to influence on decisions being made.
But it's fine. I'm kind of happy as long as big tech is not running it, and as long as it doesn't have ads and user tracking, and other poison.
- I'm kind of happy as long as big tech is not running it
  Wait for it. It's coming. That's why Meta is doing this. We're in the "embrace" phase of "embrace, extend, extinguish".
  I don't see how to avoid it, unless the courts step in. The only reason why we're using the World Wide Web instead of the Microsoft Wide Web is because the US sued Microsoft and won.
- FOSS 4 Life, bb!

94 comments