How can children be introduced to digital technology and the internet in a playful way? At what age is this appropriate? And how can this be done without exposing children to all the negative aspects?
The best thing we have done is make all computers be in the same room, and no personal digital devices until they are old enough.
Just being able to give oversight is the most important thing.
You do need to be able to say “youre not old enough for that yet” and then explain why. Luckily my kids accept that when its explained.
Thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind as an uncle.
This is a good one. I'd have died of dehydration if I'd had a PC with access to the internet in my room as a teenager. Also learning to cover my tracks and circumvent restrictions my parents put on the shared family computer taught me valuable computer skills.
I used a thin client, HP T610+, and installed Windows XP POS.
this is a point-of-sale version of windows xp that's basically XPSP3. it comes with Ethernet, WiFi, touchscreen drivers, etc. works really well actually.
I firewalled it from internet access and allowed my kid to surf the intranet I host along with standard 90s 00s kids software.
I also used a kid keyboard that deviates from the typical 102 keyboard. no function keys etc.
you could do the same with an old x86 laptop too, recommend using a dual core CPU if possible though.
to ensure nothing is broken, I used software called deepfreeze from Faronics. it freezes the system and restores the system after reboots. just to make it clear, this means any changes to the "c" drive will not be permanent.
to keep the save files I used a some batch scripts/shortcut trickery and re/store them from the NAS when the apps start and end.
in the end it's sitting in my tech closet after my eldest lost interest after a year. Now I'm waiting for my youngest to break it out again.
You're a genius. I installed Linux on an old chromebook and the amount of times my kid would alt-tab out of scummvm or dosbox or whatever was redonkulous.
Also Linux is about as kid-friendly as a honey badger
My hot take: good.
I've got my kids using Linux on Raspberry Pis, and I honestly want them to break it so that then they have to figure out how to fix it.
I mean, that's basically how I learned to use computers (except I was using DOS)...
Makes them learn. The spoon feeding software is part of the problem of our dumb society.
You'd be an awesome parent !
At what point is a mouth ready to drink from a firehose?
My brother was 4 when he started using a computer with his Microsoft Easyball mouse. With touchscreen devices, that could probably be brought down to 3 or even 2. Just make your kid a Roblox account, and set them free. It's a kids game, so it's 100% safe. Hell, set them up with social media accounts, too.
I was pleasantly surprised that kids are being taught Internet safety in grade 1 where I'm from. Still no way in hell I'd let a kid on the internet unsupervised at that age mind you...
My toddler uses a PC rather than a tablet. Can even load up her videos in VLC on her own! (Although I simplified it to the desktop for now so she doesn't have to hunt through folder branching)
Found some websites with some old school flash games that I bookmarked too.
I'd start with sorting videos into folders on desktop to get organized, don't let her be the unorganized girl's desktop meme!
I don't have children so you can accept or dismiss my contribution as you please. I do have about 50 nieces and nephews of varying age (I have a big family) ... and they have lots more children after them.
Children shouldn't be exposed to the internet on their own until about 12 or 14 years of age. They shouldn't be given free reign to look at things as they please. If you do want to expose them to it all ... then it should always be under parent supervision.
I was born in the 70s (I never know what generation that makes me) ... all I know is that it placed me at the perfect age to grow up without the internet and to grow as an adult with the internet. Now I know how to navigate, explore and deal with the internet and social media on my own in a very objective, critical point of view ... I don't trust everything and I trust people less and I question everything I come across. I'm not perfect and I'm not the smartest but I am very careful about what I watch, read and interact with on the internet. I still do dumb things and watch dumb things but I also do my best to stay aware of many other important political, social, philosophical things in the world.
I got to that point by being able to have a critical view of the world and to learn how to do things on my own and learn lots ... mainly because I grew up without the internet. It takes a lot of imagination, work and brain power to try to do things with very little resources when you're a kid ... and that is an important training period for a young mind ... plus I learned to read books, comics and paperbacks .... reading takes in a lot more information than in watching 18 hours of minecraft videos, fail videos, funny videos or influencers dancing around.
I think kids should be encouraged to just learn on their own without the internet or with limited access .... then given full access to it once they get a bit older. If you just raise kids on nothing but free for all internet ... their brains are going to be pudding by the time they turn 18
You're exactly my kind of guy. For me, it's not about my daughter, but about my little niece, who just turned five.
When we're together, we go out to the woods, to the lake, to the playground, to the bookstore, the museum, to the zoo, or something like that.
Until further notice, I have no intention of putting her in front of a screen.
I've just planned that at some point, when my niece is much older, I might build a weather station or an irrigation system with her using a Raspberry Pi or something like that.
But that's still a long way off.
Neat ... all my family is not anywhere near me so I don't spend much time with them during the year. I used to years ago and we were often overwhelmed with children everywhere but not any more.
You should go ahead with that weather station or irrigation station ..... just figure out how to use mechanical / tactile systems you build, use, measure and document by hand on paper.
I used to play games with my nieces and nephews with puzzle hiding games - I'd give them a clue to find an object, which had another clue, then kept them guessing and finding the next clue five or six times until they found a small prize. A fun little game you can design inside a room, or inside a house, or in a field or yard.
I haven't done that game in years but last year I had a nephew who is 20 now remind me how much he enjoyed it years ago. It's something they remember far more than a playlist of funny Youtube videos.
Have fun while you can with them .... times goes by really, really fast and by the time you realize it all, they're all grown and can no longer spend much time with you.
Lemmy will say, give them an old desktop with linux.
I would say the same. No ipads or smartphones. Give them books on coding. Build a pc with them. Learn to solder.
'Old enough' is a troublesome concept. I've met parents in their 40s who I wouldn't say met the mental competence minimum to be capable of informed consent, so age isn't really the measure.
If you want to give a kid the chance to learn tech but not be messed up by it, the best advice I've seen is to keep it isolated and user focused. The computer is a place they can go to when they demand its utility, not with them all the time and demanding their attention. The computer is a tool to let them do something else, not a way to cure 30 second windows of boredom with a stream of content. No internet or uncontrolled content, only curated software with no social aspect so they aren't open for exploitation. The internet is basically a 'no' for maintaining sanity and safety. They'll get access to all sorts of things as they get older/gain autonomy, so you won't have to worry about when it's appropriate to give them access.
This is so well put! Than you for making the LemmyVerse a better place!
I saw one comment about baking and that reminded me....
If you let your 6 year-old bake, you don't teach them oven safety then leave them to it. You do it together.
The same is probably good for tech and internet. Do it as a together thing. And that means also cultivating good habits yourself. If you sit watching porn all day and writing hate mail on Facebook, telling your niece she's not old enough for it yet, she's going to see and want to try.
What is ((thing)) for? How do we use it? The answers are learnt in watching and in doing it together. I know the internet is famous for children learning all sorts of things by themselves (including good things). But I think for healthy development, this still applies, and when they're ready for The Great World Beyond With All Its Pitfalls And Evils, they're more ready.
On timing, I'd say that unless you plan to live in wilderness somewhere and limit connectivity options, that it's going to happen pretty quickly regardless of your position. Even if you don't provide access to the Internet, once kids start going to school, I expect that they'll make friends, and at least some of those friends are going to have Internet access, probably in a mobile form.
And phone-based WiFi hotspots and Bluetooth tethering means that if someone's friends have some sort of cell service with unlimited data, as long as they're around them, they can share an Internet access link, so can use their own WiFi-capable device, don't need to share devices. I expect that used WiFi-capable devices are not going to be hard to come by, though I guess that a parent could try to forbid their kids to have one.
And once a kid's location isn't restricted to being around their parents all the time, for anyone in an urban setting, there are going to be foot-accessible places that provide WiFi access --- like, everyone at school knows the local Starbucks password or whatever.
EDIT: On consideration, I don't think that Starbucks actually passwords their WiFi service, but even for restaurants or shops or whatever that do and have guest WiFi, not a super high bar.
Yes, sooner or later it's probably not a good idea to keep kids away from the internet.
My little niece is still way too young at 5, but I'm already thinking about it because at some point she'll come into contact with the internet anyway.
That's why I'm asking here — I'm already trying to gather some good ideas for a few years down the line.
Doesn't directly answer your question but relevant:
"The Wait Until 8th pledge empowers parents to rally together to delay giving children a smartphone until at least the end of 8th grade. Let’s protect the elementary and middle school years from the distractions and the dangers of a smartphone. Banding together helps decrease the pressure to have a phone at an early age. Ten years old is the average age children get their first smartphone. You can change this!
Smartphones are distracting and potentially dangerous for children yet are widespread in elementary and middle school because of unrealistic social pressure and expectations to have one.
These devices are quickly changing childhood for children. Playing outdoors, spending time with friends, reading books and hanging out with family is happening a lot less to make room for hours of snap chatting, instagramming, and catching up on YouTube.
Parents feel powerless in this uphill battle and need community support to help delay the ever-evolving presence of the smartphone in the classroom, social arena and family dinner table. Link arms with other parents to wait until at least the end of eighth grade for a smartphone!"
"This needs a majority of other kids to also no have smartphone."
100% agree, that's the whole point of the organization and other orgs like it. They founded it to raise awareness and to get families to support each other. A group mindset against phones in childhood and early adolescence, which I agree is much more difficult if you're the only one without one.
are you happy with how you are?
Didn't have restrictions when I was growing up, maybe I'm an exception. I installed Linux Mint on my laptop when I was 11. Now I use NixOS.
Some of the kids game sites like coolmath are still around. Lots of quick games that designed to be fun, beaten, but not drain your soul.
Also turn off the adblocker at some point. Kids gotta learn what's an ad and what's not.
Also turn off the adblocker at some point. Kids gotta learn what's an ad and what's not.
And install Windows while you're at it. Ransomware builds character.
Nah, they get enough of that on the school Chromebooks.
Goal is to teach them how to avoid the dark side, not to let them swim in it.
What's coolmath?
A website full of flash games (well, html5 now), many have some sort of educational value. At least better than mobile games.
Nothing groundbreaking, but if a kid's gonna play a game, may as well sneak some math problems in there.
I don't know if it can (or should) be done without the negative aspects. The internet is really dangerous.
Children can be introduced to baking in a playful way, but still need to be taught how to do it safely. You wouldn't try to do it without mentioning that the oven is hot, or that they shouldn't play with knives.
Easy-Bake Ultimate Electric Oven Playset, Kids Toys for Ages 8 up
CAUTION – ELECTRIC TOY: This toy has a heating element, which can result in burns.
I'm absolutely confident that I helped Mom in the kitchen long before 8, though. A relative's toddler was helping make cookies the other month. Wasn't putting the cookies in the oven, though.
I mean, I don't really know, I don't plan to have kids and this is just one of the things that just feel like there is no right answer.
As for playful way, well... I am a monster. Some offline device with downloaded manuals (including Arch wiki), explanations of key parts of Linux and some basic networking, computer without OS, Arch Linux installer USB, and network connection possibly without DHCP server (with known network info).
And there you go. Figure it out. Archinstall should make it easy.
You can't start using Linux early enough. It's not about my daughter, but about my niece, but I'll keep that in mind when she's old enough.
Kid isn't allowed a phone until he can compile and flash his own operating system from source
Back in mah day, internet time was super limited (dial up). Having a hard restriction on daily internet use, like 2 hours tops, would be a good starting point, in my opinion.
As others mentioned, no phones or tablets, not before 14y. I'd also completely block Roblox, TikTok, Instagram, xitter and Facebook. The kid can learn about those things from friends, but at home those things will be off limits and explained as mind control programs (a bit hyperbolical, but not entirely untrue)
For games, I'd create a small (~10), initial catalogue of curated games and let the kid play. After some months, give old magazines or show some screenshots of older stuff, or let them use their internet time to check for interesting looking titles, and let them choose one or two to add to their collection. If the game sucks, well, too bad, lesson hopefully learned.
Having access to the entire digital world at all times can really mess up our senses of "how much that's worth", because there's just so fucking much everywhere
I read the book Screentime Solution by Emily Cherkin (also Anxious Generation and Screen Schooled). Basically her advice is to be screen-intentional as a family. Right now my husband and I make an effort to put our phones away when we come home from work and spend time with each other and our toddler. Another thing is that she does not have any of her own internet devices. It’s the family tv and my iPad that she uses (with supervision and sparingly). We have a few devices she uses that are dumb (old gameboy and old iPod) but still rarely. Restaurants and family dinner are screen free zones. Even as she gets older we’re more likely to get a dumb phone and a family phone than let her have her own device. Something from the book was to let your kids have access to the internet and social media when you’re ready for them to see porn (not necessarily her opinion but an anecdote) and there’s no fool-proof parental controls. We are getting a family computer soon to teach her typing, using a mouse, and general computer skills but that will not be unsupervised or even internet connected most of the time. My goal is to teach her responsible use and to always have a line of communication open about it.
Give them an android tablet with youtube, but make sure to subscribe to good YouTube channels first
Just become Amish until they are 18 or so.
Yeesh let me know if you find a good answer. My <5 y.o. offspring found an old apple phone in a desk drawer and is begging me to charge it up, calling it “MY phone!” and in general causing me to worry about issues I wanted to avoid for a lot longer. Dreading the next 10 years of this battle.
Just tell em it's made of broccoli or something. Lol
The broccoli thing depends on the kid. I loved broccoli as a kid.
Whether-or-not it and some other vegetables have a really unpleasant taste is a genetic thing.
https://distance.physiology.med.ufl.edu/the-science-of-supertasters/
Charge it, put some educational games and setup screen time it (assuming its not so old its useless), otherwise slap their music on it and they got an ipod and camera to play with until it snaps.