2y ago

The difference between RAW and RAI

Edit: A lot of people say, that GWM needs a melee weapon attack, but they miss Jesses point: While GWM requires a melee attack with a heavy weapon, Sharpshooters only criteria is an attack with a ranged weapon (not a ranged weapon attack). Jesse bases his claim on the fact, that a crossbow is still a ranged weapon, even if used as an improvised weapon for melee combat. That’s why it deals 1d4(!)+20 damage. (It works with any ranged, heavy weapon btw., so Longbow qualifies too.) Of course Jesse is playing the devils advocate here and of course, no somewhat sane Walter will allow this in any campaign ever, as it’s obviously not the intention behind these feats. But you could read it that way and that’s Jesses (paperthin) point. Besides: he finds the image of a barbarian running around recklessly smashing a crossbow over everyone’s head to just be hilarious.

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GWM specifies a melee attack iirc
- The meme community hasn't read the rules
  
  RAR, Rules As (mis)Remembered
  
  Literally every time someone posts with this Walter and Jesse meme format, it is the dumbest shit I've ever seen. It makes me lose brain cells instantly and desperately wish I had unsubbed from this community months ago
  
  Reading in my ttrpg? Impossible. All that matters is the dm regurgitating the rules for the players.
- You’re correct. It uses “melee attack” for everything, so a crossbow would be excluded. Unless maybe you’re using the crossbow as an improvised weapon and bashing the enemy over the head with it? But then Sharpshooter wouldn’t apply, because it specifies “ranged weapon attack” and hitting someone with a melee attack wouldn’t be ranged.
  
  Sharpshooter specifies "an attack with a ranged weapon"- so the only argument I could see against using a crossbow for bonking counting for that is if using a crossbow as a melee weapon makes it not count as a ranged weapon. That's an interpretation I disagree with, though, per the sage advice on thrown weapons and sharpshooter- if throwing a dagger isn't an attack with a ranged weapon, it implies that "ranged weapon" is inherent to the item rather than how it's used. Throwing a dagger at someone is an attack with a melee weapon, ergo hitting someone in the face with a crossbow is an attack with a ranged weapon.
  
  No. Sharpshooter (as written) requires an attack with a ranged weapon. Nothing says the attack has to be ranged. I could also use a shortbow as an improvised meelee-weapon and triggers Sharshooter (I’m mostly relying on the fact that just because I’m not using it as a ranged weapon, it still is one). But Crossbow is also heavy, allowing the use of GWM.
  
  Hitting someone with a melee attack is a range of 1m!
- It is a melee attack. Jesse hits people with the crossbow in melee. Jesse does read the rules. Thank you.
  
  Then Sharpshooter wouldn't trigger, because that counts as an improvised weapon.
- But sharp shooter doesn't specify a ranged attack... right? Right?
  (My source is wikidot)
  
  even on that wiki it states that you need to make a ranged weapon attack. THREE TIMES, infact the same amount GWM states that it needs a melee weapon attack.
  
  Correct. It says an attack with a ranged weapon.
  
  It does specify ranged weapon attack.
This doesn't really work as far as I can tell, RAW or RAI. While it is the case that in theory a Melee Attack with a Heavy Ranged Weapon would satisfy both criteria, there is no weapon that can normally perform such an attack, as far as I'm aware. Using a Heavy Crossbow or a Longbow to make a Melee Attack would be attacking with an Improvised Melee Weapon, which is both not a Ranged Weapon and does not have the Heavy property, so neither Feat would be useful.
If we are being generous we could say that attacking with a Heavy Crossbow would be like a Club and a Longbow would be like a Staff, and per the Improvised Weapons rules we could use those weapon stats for our Improvised Weapon, however, note that neither of these have the Heavy property, so you would be unable to use either Feat in this case as well. (The Heavy property, particularly on Ranged Weapons, seems to be not about the weight of the weapon (an intrinsic property of the thing), but about the strength required to attack with such a weapon in it's intended manner. In this way it would make sense that neither Feat would work.)
- As far as I can see, the rule for using a ranged weapon for melee is just: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage." That says nothing about changing the traits of the weapon, nor that the weapon is treated as an improvised weapon for the purposes of the attack- the rules for improvised weapons are a seperate clause within the same paragraph. As such, I'd argue that hitting someone with the butt of your heavy crossbow is effectively an attack with a martial weapon, damage 1d4 bludgeoning, with the traits Ammunition (range 100/400), heavy, loading and two-handed- of which ammunition doesn't apply because it's not a ranged attack, and thus loading doesn't constrain multiattack (because only being able to load 1 piece of ammo per round doesn't affect the bonks per round). Per the thrown weapon rules, I'd also argue that bonking people with a crossbow would rely on the attacker's dex, because it doesn't have the finesse property and as a ranged weapon it's dex based.
  
  If you look at the Ammunition Property it says "If you use a weapon that has the ammunition property to make a melee attack, you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon", which I read as meaning your weapon is an Improvised Weapon rather than a Ranged Weapon. Although I do concede that the improvised weapons rule says that if you are using a Ranged Weapon to make a Melee Attack it will deal 1d4 damage, which I assume means that you can't use the rule that says that you can treat it like another similar weapon, which I think is odd, but ok.
  (Also, if you want to be very nitpicky about it, the ammunition property says you can't make ranged attacks without loaded ammunition, but any type of attack will spend your ammunition. However, I don't think that's a fair reading, and I think the ammunition property simply does not apply, because you are using it as an Improvised Weapon and therefore none of the Properties apply.)
  I suppose if you really wanted to get into the details, the rules in the Ammunition section would not apply to weapons that are Ranged Weapons, but do not have the Ammunition Property, like the Dart or Net. But I feel like it would be most reasonable to rule that these are also considered Improvised Weapons and not Ranged Weapons that deal 1d4 damage if used to make a Melee Attack. (Although the Net can not deal damage as per it's Special Property, so that doesn't really apply to it, so you would be left with the Dart, which doesn't have the Heavy Property, and thus isn't really relevant to the greater discussion here.)
  
  Was with you until your final point. Per the “Ability Modifiers” section of Attack Rolls in chapter 9, making a melee weapon attack uses Strength. The only exception to this is weapons that have finesse, which the crossbow does not. And despite this being an attack with a ranged weapon, you are using it as a melee weapon attack.
The DM omnirule applies: If it breaks the game, then no, just no. But if it merely makes the game more ridiculous without giving the DM a splitting headache or driving players away from the table, allow it.
I suspect something like this would trigger the headache clause, and if I were DM I'd probably ask the player to pick which one he would rather it apply to, but not both.
- -10 to hit will mean this person is doing an average of 6 damage an attack across an arbitrary number of attacks. I think you'd be fine.
Heavy Crossbow
Heavy Crossbow
My take on why this doesn't work RAW is there's a time that states "specific beats general"
When you use a crossbow as a melee weapon, it specifically belongs an improvised melee weapon for the attack, which trumps the general rule that a crossbow is ranged weapon.
I would even go so far as to say that means it doesn't qualify for GWM either.
okay but if you're using the crossbow as a melee weapon does it still count as ranged?
(also this is what I hate about the wargaming origins of most DnD systems, and have been really enjoying the PBTA derived Matryoshka I want my game to be more about collaborative storytelling and roleplaying and a GM that can make on the fly decisions as to what makes sense with the rulebook more as a basic outline than concrete mechanical rules like we're playing a CRPG but with pen and paper)
- PHB says "attack with a ranged weapon" which is not necessarily a ranged attack.
  
  It's an improvised melee weapon when you smack someone with it because you aren't using the weapon as designed.
  
  It just feels like rules lawyering and focusing on semantics, when the intent is clear.
  Also I get why it is a meme but I stand by my pedantry.
  
  This is one of those situations where the context is clear but they switched the wording to be about the weapon in the context of proficiency for the third bullet point. Ranged attack description, ranged attack for first two bullet points, and then ranged weapon for the third.
  So if you ignore all the context and expect them to repeat "ranged weapon making a ranged attack" in every single sentence then yes, it literally says ranged weapon in the third bullet and not ranged attack.
What's GWM?
- Great Weapon Master
  
  Thank you much
Theres is a bug in the current Dwarf Fortress combat AI where soldiers equipped with crossbows will only shoot targets if they can’t path to the target. If they can, they will instead prefer to run up to it and melee with the crossbow.
I believe you have found their reasoning.

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