Vistra's battery storage facility goes up in flames, spurs evacuation orders
Vistra's battery storage facility goes up in flames, spurs evacuation orders
Yeah, I think massive chemical batteries for storing excess electricity to facilitate a contrived green energy market is a bad idea.
So uh. I guess those coal and natural gas power plants would fare better in a fire. Something seems wrong there but OP clearly wouldn't possibly post something on the Internet that was utterly detached from reality.
Energy storage is just that. Fire is frequently quite good at releasing said energy.
Lithium? poof.
Oil? yup.
Nat gas? mmhmm.
wood? yup.
Coal? dang.
Guess all we got left is water - I'm sure that doesn't have any specific regional requirements...
So tell us champ: what energy storage you got all figured out from that armchair?
Nuclear though, never had a problem with excess heat at one of those. /s
Was gonna list it but I figured our energy-tzar OP would just complain about radioactive minerals being like batteries with more steps.
Nobody's ever died from a dam collapse.
Hey! It puts out fires so it's like... better!
None. Use demand shaping instead. I like electrolysis of water, but desalination might make more sense in some regions. I suppose you could even redirect excess electricity to certain computational work.
I imagine you, like many, just don't understand the insane engineering feat that is an electrical grid. Everything is realtime - Every time someone's AC kicks on the grid must adapt and provide more power immediately. Power storage is a godsend to this process and in terms of relative age ... is very new. With regard to power storage - there are very few ways to hold it that don't run some risk of fire or other calamitous failure mode. That includes water - but I was being coy when making my statement implying it wouldn't burn.
To your comment: you could use salt/sea/undrinkable water for energy storage but it comes with regional requirements (elevation change typically) in addition to the water. It's not one size fits all and definitely doesn't work in many regions.
Regarding your two options which you offered to create potable water (not to store energy:) Both are wildly inefficient and have one or more major drawbacks to them. Topically - one of these drawbacks is their massive energy requirement. So you provided a way to burn energy faster - not store it ;)
What are the alternatives?
A really strong elastic band.
Mechanical energy storage, like pumped hydro or flywheel. Thermal energy storage, like molten salt.
Electrochemical isn't entirely off the table either: less-volatile chemistries are available, and better containment methods can reduce risks.
Non-electrical chemical storage methods are available: electrical energy can be used for hydrogen electrolysis, or Fischer-Tropsch hydrocarbon fuels. Fuel cells, and traditional ICE generators can recover the energy put into those (relatively) stable fuels, or we can export it from the electrical generation industry to the transportation industry.
There's also avoiding (or minimizing) the need for storage at all, with "demand shaping". Basically, we radically overbuild solar, wind, wave, tidal, etc. Normally, that would tank energy prices and be unprofitable, but we also build out some massive, flexible demand to buy this excess power. Because they are extremely overbuilt, the minimal output from these sources during suboptimal conditions is more than enough to meet normal demands; we just shut off the flexible additional demand we added. We "shape" our "demand" to match what we are able to supply.
There’s also avoiding (or minimizing) the need for storage at all, with “demand shaping”. Basically, we radically overbuild solar, wind, wave, tidal, etc. Normally, that would tank energy prices and be unprofitable, but we also build out some massive, flexible demand to buy this excess power. Because they are extremely overbuilt, the minimal output from these sources during suboptimal conditions is more than enough to meet normal demands; we just shut off the flexible additional demand we added.
Bingo.
Lifting your mom with a pulley.
I believe there is battery tech that is newer but being deployed into production that is iron based. It is heavier and less energy dense than lithium. But for power grid level deployment that should be fine and iron is a bit harder to catch on fire.
Build a tower, use excess power to lift heavy weights. Drop them when you need electricity to spin generators
Video on weight storage. Pumped hydro is proven and efficient, but it's location specific.
Weight lifting is slightly less efficient due to friction and heat generated by pully system, and the vast amount of weight and space needed may limit available storage possibility and scalability. But its simple, and safer.
Abandon the model of buying and storing electricity when demand is low and reselling power back to the grid when demand is high. Instead, electricity should almost always be generated in excess of demand with the difference going to hydrogen and oxygen production for various medical, industrial, agricultural, and transport applications. If we ever run out of storage, they can be safely vented to atmosphere.
Before you can can do that, you need enough renewable generation capacity to exceed peak demand. And of course that will never happen because of the bottomless appetite of AI and bitcoin mining for electric power.
You're hard pushing hydrogen / oxygen pretty blindly. Do you happen to know what the best efficiency of it is? It's not great. And it gets worse when you have to harvest it (typically electrolysis which is brutally energy intensive.) Worse still when you need to compress it - and don't even start me on energy density. Oh and that compressed gas needs to be kept cold. More energy.
Hydrogen cells have been around for ages and are still functionally worthless until the storage and generation problems are solved.
Electrolisis is relatively inefficient and wears down the electrodes. While not as bad on an industrial scale, those are still problems. And then you have to convert it back, that is even less efficient.
Good in theory, barely passable in practice. Growing sugar cane and making ethanol would be better, like brazil does it.
This is why you don't use battery chemistries that can thermally run away autoignite in grid storage. The plant was using LG JH4 batteries, which use an NMC chemistry. I don't think that LiFePO4 cells were as ubiquitous when this plant was first constructed, so the designers opted for something spicy instead.
This shit is why you use LiFePO4. It can't thermally run away autoignite, it lasts longer, and the reduced energy density doesn't really matter for grid storage. Plus, it doesn't use nickel or cobalt so the only conflict resource is lithium.
EDIT: LiFePO4 batteries can enter thermal runaway, but they can't autoignite.
Ever seen what happens when a coal mine catches fire? Link
I guess we should just go back to water mills right?
... 3000-megawatt Moss Landing energy storage ...
"megawatt" is not a quantity of energy.
Also, are those battery fires more frequent // important than petrol ones ?
No. And the petrol fires are many and ongoing in everyone's cars. Also large petrol fires are not always reported in the US. I can think of one specific instance that tho' a major fire, producing a wall of smoke, yet I could only find one news report of it's existence.
Also, are those battery fires more frequent // important than petrol ones ?
Petrol fires use oxygen from the air. They can be extinguished by removing the oxygen: covering it in firefighting foam, or displacing it with CO2, for example.
Batteries contain both their fuel and their oxidizer together in one case. You can't remove the oxygen. So long as they are hot enough, they keep burning, even if they are underwater. The only way to extinguish them is to remove the heat. Which is practically impossible.
Good point.
And so, i would expect large accidents in tunnels in next decades that will prompt laws & regulation to restrict electric vehicles from (access to) tunnels ...
We shouldn't have either.
Per the AP, "There were fires at the Vistra plant in 2021 and 2022".
Agreed, yet, you know that, since this is a new technology in development, it is more subject to accidents. What's more is that media are more inclined to report any even small accidents about it. So, finally, information and news here are not necessarily representative of the whole reality.
Thanks anyway for this striking breaking news i didn't know about 😌
Enlighten us with better approach. Also there are battery types that are less flammable.
Edit: is -> us
Here's another article from AP: https://www.npr.org/2025/01/17/g-s1-43268/fire-battery-storage-plant-california-moss-landing
Clearly, storing steam in tanks for demand surges is the most efficient form of energy storage (as in Factorio)
I would prefer to use energy rather than store it, but yes, pressure vessels are preferable to chemical batteries.
Yeah, that's probably true. I was mainly being silly and making a factorio reference. On the other hand, with the intermittent/cyclical nature of renewable energy, I don't think it's unreasonable to look into ways to store it for times when demand outstrips supply. Maybe there's something I'm missing? I'm not an expert in energy grids or anything.
This is a shitty Texas-based company cutting corners, who also had fires in 2021 and 2022. There are plenty of battery storage facilities operating safely.
As someone living in Texas presently: you could have saved yourself a full sentence:
to
or honestly:
Would be sufficient. Any Texan that doesn't own x texas-based-company is tired of that company's bullshit. It's one of the few things natives and transplants agree on.
This PSA brought to you by the makers of: y'all, you all, and all y'all.
You're right, but I think less dense but safer and more sustainable options are the better choice for this
We can all agree on that, Clearly li-ion is a bad choice for static use cases.
But right now it’s the cheapest option, and it looks likely that will stay true for quite a while unfortunately.
I don't think they should be operating at all.