How did we move from forums to Reddit, Facebook groups, and Discord?
How did we move from forums to Reddit, Facebook groups, and Discord?
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/28930199
A bit of an effortpost :)
Please do crosspost in more fitting communities if you think of any
We trusted corporations.
I'd like to think we've collectively learned our lessons, but watching people migrate from Reddit to fucking Discord makes me think that we really have not and probably never will.
Corpos are spending countless resources to infiltrate anything with as much as a iota of traction so that they can bleed the cow cash dry and sell its carcass for money.
Even if you distrust the corpos and want them to die, the majority of the population has so much trouble just surviving that its hard to raise up against that bullshit
I don't know, but every fucking group's reliance on Discord pisses me off. I'm very much into modding my games, the problem is that every damn mod author wants to do support only on Discord, which means probably more than half of my 200 servers are just for that.
Man you said it. I despise discord. My gaming group will post things in the chat, and if you ever want to look at something again it's a pain in the ass to find it
yep. it's free and easy, and becoming the default. :|
Seriously. I don't mind it as a platform for socialising, but it's terrible as a support platform, and it goes against the idea of open and accessible information.
I really don't get how one is supposed to use more than one server. As in, how to spread one's attention to feel like one is present in so many places. It's a total non-starter for me.
Discord is a terrible platform for communities and for support, because it's one giant group chat and the messages scroll by. You really need a forum type environment for these types of things and while discord does have a forum format option, it's still really sucks and also gets little use on the count of how the rest of Discord is structured.
This is a fantastic read. I wasnt around for the prime days of forums but I did experience them a bit.
I'm becoming extremely concerned about the number of topics and projects that are migrating to Discord. My main issue is that it is not and never will be publically indexed, and among other problems, is itself a corporate walled garden we consider to be "one of the good ones".
I really hope we find and establish a "low executive cost" solution before the next time Discord fumbles (which is inevitable) and we can claw some of that activity back.
But people are so used to seamless voice and video chat nowadays - and that's a technical hurdle that AFAIK, no open-source self-hostable projects have come close to solving.
But people are so used to seamless voice and video chat nowadays - and that’s a technical hurdle that AFAIK, no open-source self-hostable projects have come close to solving.
this is unironically such a big problem, there are great voice chatting solutions, mumble, and the handful of other ones that exist out there.
There are basically 0 good usable video conferencing/sharing softwares out there. The same goes for desktop streaming. If we just focused like, a little bit more of our energy on these two things, i think the world would unironically get better. It's 2024, h264 runs on a CPU like nothing, why haven't we figured out how to do these things yet?
The ones that do exist are likely to be web based, and thus, webRTC, the dreaded behemoth of both web support and also, generally poor implementation. I just want mumble but with support for video streaming, how hard is it >:(
It’s 2024, h264 runs on a CPU like nothing, why haven’t we figured out how to do these things yet?
It's not about the hardware. (Not like it's that ubiquitous anyway; I'm daily driving a machine from 2017)
I'm going to guess part of it is because for the things that matter to the people who do end up having to code, test and distribute stuff, something like "seamless screen sharing" or "video conference" doesnt really matter.
And IMO, that's good if we want to Recover the Web.
The idea behind being in something like a jabber chatroom, or a web forum, is that I can pay attention to 12 channels (or whatever) at a time, read one or two, reply in three others, etc. Text is so un-invasive that I can just explore without bothering myself or anyone else.
In comparison, something like audio chat or video chat is more presence-encompassing. You can't really "push to talk" three different things to three chatrooms at about once, and you likely can but won't want to listen to three chatrooms full of people at the same time. For something like a videoconference you not only need a camera, but a good behind-you because not only who knows who or what will be showing back there.
In the end, something like a simple jabber-like chatroom is far easier and more productive to work on, even before we get to the coding part.
Not to mention: this is computer stuff. No one really likes to work on "debt", which is what "Foo has to have 'screen sharing' because Discord has it" ultimately boils down to.
Matrix+elements is very easy to selfhost in any homelab. works well enough for goverments. Federated and easy end to end encryption. And one can easily set up a web archive bridge forvarchiveable rooms.
That beeing said i still think IRC is the best for pure text chat.
If there was a Reddit/Lemmy style website (where people create communities for various subjects but it's all available from the same website using the same credentials) with forum style discussions I would be outta here in a moment.
Ongoing discussions with bumps are so much better for knowledge accumulation (that's the reason why they're still used by specialized communities), the major issue with forums, as pointed out, is the hassle of having to go from one website to another to talk about various subjects and needing to sign up to each one of them.
As for solving the "little Kings" issue, dumb backend, smart frontend. Remove admins from the equation, those hosting are only there to host. People moderate communities but communities can easily be replaced. People create a frontend to access the backend but from a user point of view it doesn't make a difference what frontend they use, they will get access to the same content.
The fact that I've written this comment a dozen times since last year proves a point, Reddit/Lemmy style websites just lead to content being repeated again and again. This comment will get lost to time just like all the other times I shared my opinion on the subject. On a forum it would be part of the ongoing discussion and anyone who wanted to go through the whole thread where all discussions on that subject to place would read it, no matter how long it had been since I posted.
It seems to me the only thing you're missing from the functionality you want on lemmy is a sorting system which just bumps any threads with new comments to the top. I don't like that approach myself, but if that's what you want I don't see a reason not to have it. Why don't you suggest it to the lemmy devs? It doesn't seem like it would be difficult to add it.
EDIT: Actually, nevermind, this already exists with the "New Comments" feature. Why don't you just use that? https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/?dataType=Post&listingType=Subscribed&sort=NewComments
Only works if everyone's experience is the same and discussions are centralized in threads. I added to my comment but on a forum that discussion would be part of a thread where all similar articles/discussions would be centralized instead of having a new thread being opened on the same subject every few weeks and people having to rewrite the same opinion every time (or just not sharing their opinion anymore because they're tired of repeating themselves every time someone wants to talk about that subject).
There's no knowledge accumulation with the way things work on Reddit/Lemmy, just repetition and things being forgotten.
I don't disagree.
There is one forum I still participate in:
https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/
It's mostly tech-focussed and Australia-centric, but it does have other topics like sport, TV etc..
I wish there were more like this.
I hate that the bulk of online discussion is now owned/monopolised by a couple of huge corporations.
There are many forums like that, especially if you're not limited to one language. Most of the ones I frequent have been around for 10 or 20 years or more, but kind of fly under the radar. ilxor being a very good example. AFAIK, the latter also adds only one new user per day. I'd say that's a good thing, even though I had to apply several times.
There are several forum software companies working on ActivityPub support, I know both Discourse and NodeBB have been working on it for a while
Indeed, hopefully they can complete compatibility at some point
If there was a Reddit/Lemmy style website (where people create communities for various subjects but it’s all available from the same website using the same credentials) with forum style discussions
Isn't this just Discourse?
the major issue with forums, as pointed out, is the hassle of having to go from one website to another to talk about various subjects and needing to sign up to each one of them.
Honestly the "having to sign up" part would be trivial to solve if topical forums just globally adopted OpenID sign-in or similar. No need to have one account per community if you already have (or "are") an account in the World.
But even then, there's a point to having to go through a sign-up process. At least some sort of vetting. We have seen how far have fallen all the communities that have ever relaxed sign-ups (as another comment in this thread shows, there was once a time when FB only allowed educated people in).
I don't know, if there's any hosted instances of it, or how mature it is, but one of the Lemmy devs has experimented with using the frontend of phpBB (basically the software for old-school forums) with a Lemmy backend: !lemmybb@lemmy.ml
To my knowledge, they had some pretty quick successes with it and one might be able to just slap this onto a server right now...
Last updates where in April 2023, priority not on their priority list
Once a thread gets large enough, no one is going back to read the first page. Maybe for communities on Lemmy, “Active” is the sort method that would work the best as you’d describe, but sorting the comments/replies by votes seems the best method to make sure the most important knowledge is visible
If there was a Reddit/Lemmy style website (where people create communities for various subjects but it's all available from the same website using the same credentials) with forum style discussions I would be outta here in a moment.
My brother, this is that website
No, it's not. Unless they only allow the sorting of threads based on which discussions has the newest comment (bumping) and remove comment nesting (so discussions are ongoing instead of branching off which makes it difficult to keep up with what's new in the different threads), it's not that website.
People prefer centralization, and it makes sense. The Fediverse resolves most of the issues with decentralization, but so does centralization, which came way sooner, and arguably did it better.
Also, people seem to forget that Facebook was pretty cool back then. It had superior features, and was not the buggy mess it is today.
Mostly FB wasn’t a trove of far right shit and it was before a lot of the scandals pointing out to what extent our data is sold.
Sure, when only the educated could join it.
Maybe because I'm not from an English speaking culture that I don't see the far right stuff
Anything big enough becomes a public restroom. Cooperation and syncronization between groups small enough not to devolve in that way seems to be an especially promising path forward.
Power law
Millennials naively assumed that the following generations would just naturally be as computer literate as they are. We're dealing with people now who think that wi-fi is internet service.
The author of the article is specifically referring to bulletin board forums when describing forums. Link aggregators like reddit are not forums. They are comments sections.
I am the author. Heard you were talking shit...
I kid, I kid :D
I insist that in their current form, reddit (and lemmy) can serve as both forums and link aggregators with comment sections.
Yeah. Federating forums seem like a useful feature to keep them going. The forum style has it benefits that the discord and reddit style lacks. Sadly a forum I used a lot for my community is now in its final days, even if it managed to last a lot longer than others
Maybe ask if they're willing to switched over to lemmy? You can sort like a forum does. Long shot but hey....
true. I didn't consider that. That would could work. Lemmy is a lot more advanced in that regard. Currently the best ideas are Discord and give up, and the original owners are done with the idea, but I could try and create a spiritual successor on here. Lemmy suffers a bit from the same isues as Forums with lack of people, but I only need to convince the OGs. I need to think about that, and a forum from 2004 whose software is a decade out of date is easy to beat in that regard
Also thanks for creating this awesome instance.
Discord and Reddit also had uniquely improved their UIs over the existing options.
Until that API nonsense I was always using old.reddit because the redesign was ass.
Discord is cool tho, better than skype gui for sure.
I'm on 3 active forums and 2 lemmies and 2 mastos and I just leave myself logged in. It's nothing like that. Somehow that's still a better user experience than discord
Somethingawful is still going strong, even after Lowtax died.
Out of all the things, Reddit is probably still the best for flashlight purchasing advice.
Here in Germany the forum culture is still somewhat alive, social media did take a big cut though.
I wish retro gaming was niche enough for nintendoage and assemblergames to still be around...
Plenty of console Homebrew and general gaming forums are still around. Like GBAtemp and ResetEra. I think all forms have really been about niche things for the most part. There were some general purpose forms but most of them focused around some Central subject that is core to their identity.
Truly general purpose platforms that attempt to be about everything weren't really a thing until social media, with digg and Reddit.
The grossest franchise of all time (Pokémon) still has like 20 forums going on.
Whilst I don't disagree with your points, don't they primarily apply to specifically a support forum?
Fewer barriers to entry? A forum is just a simple registration, usually with email confirmation and maybe a captcha once. Facebook wants real life personal information, blocks VPNs and nowadays I think you have to even provide phone numbers or a custom video of yourself. Discord, ON EVERY LOGIN, wants me to solve a 2 level captcha that loves to repeat itself multiple times and to do a two factor authentication while being just a bloated confusing mess of a chat. Reddit also now blocks VPNs like crazy and loves to shadowban you if you're inactive for a while (or whatever random reason they went with that I cannot think of).
They're the absolute worst possible choices and exclude countless of people.
Article claims the forums were expensive and difficult to maintain. I thing it more likely that Facebook groups are epopular because people are already there.
Discord has done an amazing job at convenience. It's free, they have a rather generous API. The communities have created fantastic bots. But it's important to remember discord isn't a forum it's a live chat. Two people having a live discussion is a very different thing than two people carefully curating their responses in a forum.
Reddit and Lemmy are curated knowledge repository wrapped in discourse. Which brings an advantage over old forums.
More or less I would argue that the article is missing convenience as a driving factor.
Edit: I poorly skimmed this article and mistook some of its points. This comment deserves no upvotes and I'll circle back later and give some credible feedback.
Discord has a bloody server limit which makes it impractical
Edit: I poorly skimmed this article and mistook some of its points. This comment deserves no upvotes and I’ll circle back later and give some credible feedback.
Thank you for this constructive approach
Discord has forums built in. I know everyone hates it when I mention it, but there is continuity on Discord and has been for several years now.
That’s because it’s not exactly a great point. Look, we’re all glad they caught up to 1980’s bbs tech, but it’s behind a login screen. YOU HAVE TO GIVE YOUR PHONE NUMBER TO ACCESS IT.
Discord had always been a square peg beaten with a hammer to fit in a round hole. Eventually gaining basic features for the things it was never meant to be used for. Forcing people to sell themselves out just to read some documentation on an open source project.
discord forums are terrible though. it's hardly an upgrade from a threads only channel
They're not search engine indexable though.
You can't view it without logging in.
I used to participate in (what was then) the largest and most active automotive enthusiast forum for a specific brand. They had forums for each major model run, and classifieds, etc. I'd go there for how-to's, detailed info, reviews, tips and tricks, and of course, to tall with like-minded people. Meet ups even spawned from these groups, and friendships were forged.
As it really picked up steam, though, the forum creators decided to monetize, as every large website grapples with how to sustain their growth. Unfortunately, they decided to implement ads, subscription/pay wall, and within a month, there were five competing websites. The majority of us left in the first two weeks.
Now that forum still exists, but the content is gone, deleted by users who didn't appreciate their content being monetized (sound familiar, June 2023?). The replacements? Some struggle on, and one or two are vibrant, but mostly, it imploded. There was one glorious pair of years though, when I (and thousands of others) spent hours every day on the forum, and every topic was covered.
In hindsight, the downfall was more than just the advertisements and pay walling. It was a few non-admins that were treated as defacto mods, and they had bad attitudes. Flaming anyone who asked questions that were asked before (this was before Google made searching easier), and also holding their own practices as the only way to maintain their cars.
The reddit versions of the forums were not remotely the same, with people coming and going and not really sticking around. The best place for the info is still forums, though I think they struggle with server upkeep and costs. It's sad to me, but all things change. I'm glad for archive.org.
Advrider still going strong!
toxic users and flamers
I left Tacoma world for very similar reasons, if you searched and necro posted you got flamed, if you started a new but similar topic you got flamed.
Great post!
I would be curious to know how many people on here have found memories from BBcode-style forums.
Personally I kinda skipped web 2.0 - I had some accounts, sure, but I hardly interacted with anything else than direct messaging. However I used to hang out on phpBB for probably hours every day before Facebook took over, having been lured in by needing help progressing in Pokémon on my GameBoy Advance.
I guess I'm a minority around here in never having used Reddit much. But I'm wondering if we're, in general, a bunch of ageing nerds who are nostalgic to web 1.0, or if we're a more diverse bunch than that. ;)
Edit:
Oh, and speaking of nostalgia, I'm sad LemmyBB is not maintained any more! It makes perfect sense that it isn't of course, but what a blast it would be.
I used to use them a lot before Reddit, but I never really liked them. Too many to list or even remember at this point.
I guess a large part why I liked them was that I was really only active on one or maximum two, and I was happy just embracing the community there. It was also in my native language rather than in English, which feels excotic in retrospect.
While your post does mention notifications which really helps with engagement and was lacking from most forums, the main issue was IMHO lack of good mobile support of all the main forum platforms until as you said Discourse came along, but by then it was too late.
Seems like an interesting post, thanks for writing it!
My migration was primarily driven by threading, voting, and ads.
I am very biased in this stuff, I'll say that up front. I was in the "in-crowd" for multiple forums over the years, ran my own for many years (essentially a personality cult, as per your article), and so of course I have a warm and fuzzy view of the medium. Importantly, I found my time on forums to be socially stimulating. By that I mean that the interactions were strong enough that I didn't feel lonely, despite being stuck in various isolated places. I have never felt that way about the interactions I've had any other platforms, with the exception of direct IM clients.
With that preamble out of the way, something that's come up in the comments below but I don't feel has been explored sufficiently is permanence. Modern profit-driven platforms focus on transience. They are built around the endless-feed model and keeping users engaged as long as possible. This is built into their very bones - it's always about new content and discussion isn't designed to last more than a day. Old content is actively buried.
That's antithetical to the traditional forum model. Topics on a subject would persist for as long as there was interest (sometimes too long, of course) and users' contributions would form a corpus of work, so to speak. I found that forums that allowed for avatars and signatures were particularly good in this respect as they served as "familiar faces", allowing users to become visibly established community members.
I've used Reddit for 14 years (although lately I've given up on it) and not once in that time have I felt a sense of community. The low barrier of entry and the minimal opportunity cost of leaving a community makes the place a revolving door of (effectively) anonymous users. It's my opinion that a small barrier to entry is a good thing, coupled with persistence of content. It's not enough to have much of a chilling effect, but it provides a small amount of consequence to users' actions and that's arguably good for community formation and cohesion. A gentle counter to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory ( https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies ).
I run a Facebook group and we have an entrance question - the answer to the question is basic knowledge for the target audience, however the question itself also includes directions for where to find the answer (the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article OR the group's rules). Most people just give the answer (and some overthink it and put a load of extra info in, because the question is suspiciously easy) but a subset of people either can't be bothered or don't even finish reading the question. In my opinion, the community we've built is better without those people.
This ties into the concept of profit-driven vs. community-driven platforms. A profit-driven platform wants as many eyeballs as possible, regardless of what the owner of those eyeballs can contribute to the community. The community exists purely to facilitate profit, something which feels to me like a terrible basis for a community.
Something I do feel OP is correct about is discoverability - that's particularly an issue in the modern era of garbage search engines. I don't have any particular thoughts on the subject, I just wanted to say "Yep! Agreed!", haha.
Great post, thanks for taking the time to write this.
Great post, thanks for taking the time to write this.
I agree!
tl;dr the internet didn't used to be about making money, it was a place where people created all kinds of content, for almost no reason at all, and almost nobody was making any money, except AOL which blew all their money on CDs probably
I loved the old forums, and couldn't quite see the point of Facebook when it came out. I thought it was just for self-obsessed 'models' and wannabe 'celebs' when I first heard about it! I joined it eventually of course, as all my friends did and I wanted to see what it was all about. Over the years I've had a love/hate thing with FB and only check in a couple of times a week now.
I liked Reddit, it reminded me of the old forums. I like Lemmy more though. It's still got that feeling I remember back in the old forum days before everyone and his dog got online on their phones and things seemed to go downhill.
Lemmy reminds me of Reddit 10-15 years ago. Back when popular posts would be on the front-page for a few days, when a few hundred or thousand upvotes was a lot, when large communities had tens of thousands of subscribers, not hundreds or millions, when the chance of recognizing and running into the same users on various subreddits was still kind of common...
VC backed user experience
the other users forced me to do it by moving
Hosting a forum costs money, and we ain't got that
There were plenty of free forum hosts back in the day. (edit: just did a search and there are still free forum hosts)
But then social media came out, and everyone got addicted to the gamified dopamine mechanics like upvotes and shit. So now everything has to have upvotes, or likes, or whatever other stupid bullshit shit that has absolutely ruined human interaction and discourse and is single handedly to blame for the extremity in modern discourse, because the need to drive clicks and upvotes leads to extreme polarization where no common sense, honest discussion can be held.
because you either 100% agree with me (upvote) or you are a baby killing bastard who disagrees with me (downvote), and there can be no middle ground! /s
Even with a free forum host, it's difficult to keep things running for a long time.
Awhile back I was unsatisfied with how quickly my (new) furniture was degrading, and found a furniture forum run by a guy in the biz. So much knowledge on there about different furniture and how to actually find quality stuff that will last decades.
The owner retired this week, and he had been paying for an IT contract to do basic maintenance / upgrades on the forum (I think he started on a free host, but as it got bigger he eventually had to move it). He needed IT help basically to apply security patches and do upgrades. He's stated that he no longer plans to pay for the maintenance contract. I'm guessing the forum will disappear soon.
Great post!
Well written, interesting article.
Really getting momentum from Reddit will be tough though. Our main advantage is that we have the rest of the Fediverse as a potential user base, and existing forum apps that also activate apub; reducing network effects. If the Fediverse has momentum, so has the threadiverse.
ah yes, the age old tale of "the internet sucks and people are stupid"
If you've ever tried hosting a web based solution you'll know exactly what i mean. The entirety of web hosting is a disaster. The entire mountain of web code is a nightmare, and the collection of website based frameworks do nothing more than burn electricity and man hours to create a fucking button on a screen.
as for discord, i haven't puzzled that one out yet, i don't understand. Probably lazy developers and the community aspect, it's a forum, but free, and worse. And now you can shitpost with random people you don't even know!
Personally, i believe that enshittifcation is an inevitability. You put somebody in a room with something, and when you take them out, that thing will somehow have gotten more complex, and thus probably worse.
Discord, at one point, was better than a lot of other app on the market, and they were one of the first where you could just create an account and join any group, for free.
It became the standard, and now we're stuck with that shit
Isn't discord just shittier, proprietary IRC? I'm only on it because my Linux distro's dev uses it for communication for some reason, but from what I can tell, it's just a locked-down IRC client you can buy emojis and shit on.
it's IRC but if it had all the features, and was monetized. It has a lot more features from what i understand, but aside from that it's basically just a VOIP communication platform with video sharing. IDK why there aren't any significant alternatives like we have with mumble tho.
It's also got great VOIP functionality. And it's been a hot minute since I've used IRC, but you can automate tons of things in Discord around things like user roles. I play an old fighting game that has no ranked system, and all of that functionality, including running weekly tournaments, is handled by a Discord bot that runs on a Raspberri Pi.
I'm still trying to figure out why I left FidoNet.
Because we prefer to sign up to one thing that combines all our interests to signing up to dozens of different forums
This is why we have SSO (why on Earth are these always the proprietary ones by default) & decentralized identities such as those on ActivityPub
Preach brother!
boomers figured out the other mediums.
No, boomers invented forums (and the internet itself). Millenials invented Web 2.0 (as they called it), the corporate takeover of the internet.
Yes, but how did they suck? It's what I go into detail explaining.
While I do agree with the problems identified, I can't help but think they also made forums a lot better. Due to the lower discoverability and higher effort to actually join communities felt more personal. You interacted with smaller groups and came to know specific people. I still have friends from back then.
On larger platforms, I never had that. Even lemmy, which is small in comparison has enough people that I barely even think about specific users. Let alone speak with them on a personal level.
That's a double-edged knife. yes it feels closer and personal, but it also breeds inside groups and cliques. I've been turned away from multiple forums because I was too ASD to fit in with their culture but there was no other space to discuss it. And this can go much much worse than just a culture-fit. Not to mention that if that forum becomes too popular, that culture is anyway lost.
However using lemmy there's the best of both worlds. You can still keep your instance small enough so that you know your local users, but also be able to interact with the larger community without the extra effort I explained. For example there's instances out there like beehaw and hexbear which through have managed to retain their own culture and standards even while federated.
Hard agree. I would also like to add that I think a lot of people remember forums a lot better than they were. Federation keeps admins and mods in check, these features act as checks and balances on instances
*Nothing personal ofc db0 you run an awesome instance.
I had so many good times on forums back in the day.
The personal nature of them was great for being social and making friends, but it was also good for the quality of the content for and user behaviour too.
When everyone recognises you and remembers your past behaviour, people put effort into creating a good reputation for themselves and making quality posts. It's like living in a small village versus living in a city.
The thought of being banned back then genuinely filled people with dread, because even if you could evade it (which many people couldn't as VPNs were barely a thing) you'd lose your whole post history and personal connection with people, and users did cherish those things.
I have a different experience but I'm on a very smaller instance than .world. Your instance is big, generalist but their is lots of them that are location- or topic-oriented. Such instances are not only smaller with a more personnalised local thread but the people on it share already identified common points with you.
Unfortunately, there is no instance matching my interests. There are a number of communities across different instances, but it seems like several people tried to make their own, didn't interact with each other and all of them are long dead.
Once I find such an instance, I'll switch over. I've been meaning to leave .world anyways.