California is about to tax guns more like alcohol and tobacco − and that could put a dent in gun violence
California is about to tax guns more like alcohol and tobacco − and that could put a dent in gun violence
Illinois has some fairly strict gun laws... which is why so many guns used in crimes there come from all the states surrounding it. So I ask... do Arizona, Utah, and Nevada have these taxes as well?
I'm not against gun control, but it seems to me that a state level fix ain't it.
In the US, especially in this polarised climate, the vast majority of changes to law start with one state, and then another, and then another until slowly it gets adopted around the country.
States have long been called "laboratories of democracy" for exactly this reason. I'd actually argue that the current climate calcifies the process of policy experimentation in states and among them.
california is big. It may work better than other places, but a fed licensing program would be ideal
I'm not against gun control, but it seems to me that a state level fix ain't it.
Views like this are why nothing gets done. Starting small is better than doing nothing at all.
It's hard to change things for the whole country. It's a lot easier to change things just in one state and observe the effects. If the changes work, other states may choose to do the same thing.
Of course, it's illegal for an FFL to sell a handgun to anyone with an out of state license unless they ship it to an FFL in the person's home state for the NICs check and to make sure it complies with local laws. As for rifles, while there is no federal requirement stating the same, you'd be very hard pressed to find an FFL that is going to sell one to a person with an IL license unless it goes through the same system, all FFLs especially in border states know IL laws and are obviously hesitant to run afoul of them, iirc there is actually a local IL statute prohibiting the buying of long guns out of state without sending them through an FFL (like federally for pistols but for IL specifically with the long guns too) in it's own that the neighboring FFLs would get in trouble with the ATF for violating, not to mention FOID and standard capacity mag bans
This is the case for basically every issue, yeah, this is generally why telling people to start with politics at the local level isn't really a great suggestion for most people.
You can't fund inter-city trains at the local level, really, that has to be done at the state level at the very least, usually in a state like california, only, and usually it has to be done with federal funding. If you don't have inter-city trains or public transit, then it's hard to make a walkable city. Basically what I'm saying is that it's not atomizable, it has to be integrated with the rest of the network, which is why even the best US cities are pretty car-centric.
This is true for a litany of other political issues besides just public transit.
I think it was Chris Rock who said something like "if you want to reduce gun violence then you gotta make bullets more expensive." You're gonna see a drop in gunshots if every bullet costs $1k.
"Damn! He musta did something cuz he put fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass!"
You don’t need no gun control, you know what you need? We need some bullet control. Men, we need to control the bullets, that’s right. I think all bullets should cost five thousand dollars… five thousand dollars per bullet… You know why? Cause if a bullet cost five thousand dollars there would be no more innocent bystanders.
Yeah! Every time somebody get shot we’d say, ‘Damn, he must have done something ... Shit, he’s got fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass.’
And people would think before they killed somebody if a bullet cost five thousand dollars. ‘Man I would blow your fucking head off…if I could afford it.’ ‘I’m gonna get me another job, I’m going to start saving some money, and you’re a dead man. You’d better hope I can’t get no bullets on layaway.’
So even if you get shot by a stray bullet, you wouldn't have to go to no doctor to get it taken out. Whoever shot you would take their bullet back, like "I believe you got my property.
Hey pal, let me let you in on a secret -- bullets have already been getting more expensive, especially since COVID.
https://publination.co/cost-of-ammunition-skyrocketing-in-2024/
Maybe a comedian doesn't have the secret key to gun control after all...
You’re gonna see a drop in gunshots if every bullet costs $1k.
First of all, that's simply not true. Do you have any idea how easy reloading is? You seriously think these criminals are gonna just stop shooting people because they can't buy bullets at wallmart no more? Even with that aside, the last thing we need is giving the rich and powerful gangs a monopoly on firearms.
Common sense gun control isn't that hard, instead of pushing things that don't make any sense we should be pressuring the GOP fascists more.
Pretty sure the guns i see the criminals use aren't even legal. Crazy extended mags
This is the fundamental problem with gun regulation at the state level -- they can be effectively abrogated by neighboring states with more lax regulation. FiveThirtyEight did a piece on this a while ago. In that article they show how strict gun laws in Illinois, California, and Maryland are defeated by guns flowing in from the surrounding states with more lax laws. The vast majority of gun crime is committed with guns which are illegally possessed, but were initially obtained through legal means.
That's why Mexico is suing Arizona, and maybe Texas? Cali has strict gun laws so the cartels can't get guns here. They have no issues getting guns in AZ and TX
Even though the law can be circumvented, it nonetheless provides resistance. Traveling to another state, filling out paperwork, paying extra money, etc all provide additional obstacles to overcome. If someone was having an acute mental problem and felt compelled to eat a barrel, a simple few hours delay in acquiring a gun can make all the difference. For someone planning on using a gun for criminal activity, at some point they might just consider employment as an easier alternative if acquiring a gun is too much of a pain.
We have already seen this effect in reverse with regard to immigration. Legal immigration is such a painful crapshoot that people are willing to surrender their fate to cartels as an alternative.
Wait.... You're telling me that they continue to do crimes with guns even when the guns are illegal? Criminals? Really? I refuse to believe it.
the guns i see the criminals use
Are you running up to folks during a bank robbery and asking them for receipts?
Or is this, like, guns you saw criminals use in a cartoon show?
over 80% of mass shooters at K-12 schools stole guns from family members, according to research funded by the National Institute of Justice
Stolen and ghost guns absolutely make up a large percentage of the weapons used in crimes, there are many reports and statistics to back this up. If you need some hard data I'll be happy to provide or you could do a quick web search as well.
I assume they mean the ones they show on the news after a mass shooting.
Naw just around some major cities in California
I've been saying for years this was going to be what happens, instead of common sense gun laws they are just going to tax the shit out of it. Which sucks for law abiding responsible gun owners who just want to hunt or defend themselves. This is what happens when one side refuses to come to the negotiating table.
The constitutionality of this tax will come down to how the Roberts Court wants to interpret and apply the 200-year old concept first issued in an opinion during the Marshall Court -- the power to tax is the power to destroy. The government cannot use its authority to levy taxes in a manner which significantly encroaches on the exercise of an enumerated right. I like CA's idea here, but it's all going to come down to implementation.
There's also this crazy thing called an illegal market which circumvents tax entirely
Tbf, define "refuses." Suppressors, SBS, SBR, 1932; Background Checks, 1968; Full auto ban, 1986; AWB, 1994-2004, expired, little to no measurable impact on crime.
And yet they push and push to get the AWB back despite the fact that those guns make up less than .01% of our gun deaths, why would I think that rounding down that .01% would be "enough" and they wouldn't then progress to handguns which are demonstrably the highest contributing type of arms? Frankly there has been those compromises in the past and yet they continue to push already, it wouldn't make sense for them to stop pushing for the 99.99% once they get the .01%, they just know the "well handguns for protection I understand but those assault weapons are automagical murder machines" crowd won't go for it yet.
This is what happens when one side refuses to come to the negotiating table
Say for the sake of argument, I am President of the NRA and I can persuade my members to agree with whatever comes out of negotiations and you are on the other side, seeking a 'reasonable compromise' on gun ownership and some 'common sense' gun control legislation.
What are you willing to compromise on? What are you willing to give up??
I live on a farm, an hour from town. The sheriff response time is about 45 minutes usually. Meth heads roam around looking for stuff to steal. There's also wild dogs, Coyotes, and also wild pigs that will kill you given the opportunity. I truly hope that I'm never in a position where I have to take a human life. But having a gun is a necessity out here, even if you only have to fire a warning shot to get the crackheads to scatter. I also hunt, not even just for sport, game meat is a not inconsequential portion of our food supply. Wild pigs are a very real concern, they will gore you before you can even blink, and they can run at close to 40 MPH.
Neither side wants to negotiate here. Democrats want bans. Republicans want as much access as possible. Both sides view compromise as a temporary step towards their ultimate goal.
With respect, that's bullshit. Common sense gun reform is on the table almost monthly, after every single mass shooting pretty much... which happen with great regularity. The simplest of measures is treated like a slippery slope to full bans and so nothing at all is allowed to progress. From the outside looking in, a nationwide firearms ban is a bogeyman used to prevent anything happening at all.
Democrats want bans. Republicans want as much access as possible.
Can you elaborate? This is demonstrably false so I figured I'd give you the opportunity to explain what you meant with such a ridiculously simplistic and nonsensical statement.
Am Democrat. Do not want bans.
I'm fine with permits after training, safe storage laws, registration, and universal background checks. We also need to do a hell of a lot better in tracking down the source of illegal guns once they are obtained. If it was registered and never reported stolen, they need to question the registered owner.
Tax it higher than alcohol & tobacco.
Oh well, it'll suck for me, but at least the poors won't be armed.
That's the real point. This will have no impact on violence, let alone make a dent. It's about the controlling class disarming the working class. If only Marx had said something about this.
Yes most crime is committed with legally aquires firearms
Where do you think illegally acquired firearms are sourced from?
PDF: ATF NFCTA vol2 part3, Crime Guns Recovered and Traced
ATF traced 70.2% (1 million firearms) of submitted 'crime guns' to having originally been purchased from a dealer. An additional 22.6% (⅓ million) were from pawnbrokes. [page 7]
In 12.2% of the cases [page 26] purchaser and possessor was the same.
One or more guns are stolen in 63% of household burglaries.
From conclusion page 41:
Traced crime guns typically originate from the legal supply chain of manufacture (or import), distribution, and retail sale. Crime guns may change hands a number of times after that first retail sale, and some of those transactions may be a theft or violate one or more regulations on firearm commerce.
Like it did to alcohol and tobacco use?
Smoking is so much more prevalent in other states than it is in California. Even vaping has been dropping off recently. California overall has less binge drinking than other states but I’d attribute that as much to good weather and lots to do instead of just taxes.
Lovely another way to penalise the poor
Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary
Karl Marx
Yeah, it will accomplish ensuring poor people have a harder time exercising their rights. Apparently that is something California is very interested in.
Marx said things like that because he believed that his political and economic theories could only be implemented through violence. That statement was not intended as "workers should be able to protect themselves." It meant "workers need to go out and proactively kill people."
There are plenty of ways to interpret Marx's writings, yours is certainly one of those ways.
"By force if 'necessary'" This part is an important distinction.
Murder is already illegal lol
Exactly. And that's why this won't do shit. The people who are committing the vast majority of those homicides and other violent crimes are not using legal firearms. They don't go to a gun dealer and pay a tax and fill out a background check. They buy illegal guns on the street.
Those illegal guns can come from anywhere. Stolen, straw purchased in other states, or simply imported along with the equally illegal drugs that the firearm's owner is probably selling on the street.
All this text does is punish the law abiding gun owners who are not committing crimes who do fill out background checks who do follow the law and who do pay their taxes. Those aren't the people causing the problem.
Nearly all guns will have a legal upstream source, so it stands to reason that taxes can directly impact people selling guns used in crimes, indirectly impacts those who sell them under the table, extracts money from gun owners who as a class aren't being as responsible as they should, and fundamentally reduces the amount of guns in circulation.
Issue is gonna be with stolen guns and ammo also it’s not far to get to the Nevada border if people wanna stock up
Bingo. I know several people who make significant 'side hustle' money by bringing in objects california bans when they travel there for other business. Someone else mentioned illinois has the same issue.
and that could put a dent in gun violence
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
'States rights', right Republicans?
I doubt it. Look at Illinois, they'll just straw buy shit from neighboring states.
A demonstration that the laws work, but need to be implemented at a national scale.
And makes it so only the wealthy can afford them. Increasing the class divide. Which would give the wealthy even more power over the average citizen than they already have. On the other hand, it should increase money for the politicians to dole out to their best buddies. It also might reduce the population a bit as this might be the last straw for some. Not that criminals care. They ain't buying them in a store.
How about if we make it totally illegal for people who live in cites over 40,000 populations to own any type of weapon. That would seem to solve most issues with city violence. Or is there a problem there also?
Just food for thought. What is seen a good idea at first glance almost always have some kind of unexpected effects that need to be taken into account. Some of which might not be seen until much, much later.
I don't understand how anything related to firearms can be legally taxed in the USA — their taxation can certainly be viewed as an infringement on one's right to bear arms.
Poll tax is illegal but watch the ID required to vote crowd lose their mind when you discuss free government IDs
Are you serious? A tax does not prevent you from legally acquiring anything. At worst, it risks putting the poor at even more of a disadvantage
At worst, it risks putting the poor at even more of a disadvantage
Works as intended
Are you serious?
Yes.
A tax does not prevent you from legally acquiring anything.
I could be wrong on how this is defined legally, but the term "infringement" doesn't require absolute prevention.
At worst, it risks putting the poor at even more of a disadvantage
This is an unfavorable outcome, imo.
SCOTUS has ruled in the past that some reasonable restrictions can be placed on the right to bear arms (banning kids from carrying, for example). Not to mention that some legal minds disagree on the entire intent of the 2nd amendment
It's no different than the "time and manner" restrictions placed on speech
SCOTUS has ruled in the past that some reasonable restrictions can be placed on the right to bear arms (banning kids from carrying, for example).
I would argue that such taxation goes beyond those sorts of "reasonable restrictions", and only serves as a blanket infringement on the rights of the entire populace, regardless of context or circumstance.
Not to mention that some legal minds disagree on the entire intent of the 2nd amendment
For the sake of clarity, would you mind elaborating on this? Which legal minds disagree, and to what extent?
Looking from country that is 4 kilometers to the west of USSA, it seems to me that such big amount of violence is caused by deep social problem, not just guns. Especially when compared to another country with relatively avaliable guns - Ukraine, where almost all violence comes from Shoigu.
It's like watching two school students closed in one room for many years, and the only way to get food it to beat others. With society forcefully cut in half. With two right-wing parties, where "conservatives"' agenda is destruction of most conservative institute - education, and "left" one is more right-wing than literal Union of Right Forces.
I really doubt it. I mean, I'm all for realistic and effective gun control, but this isn't it.
(and that's not a perfection being the enemy of good statement)
Maybe if they were taxed per use…
(Not a serious suggestion :P)
Criminals love paying taxes
Damn, the NRA is going to be fucking confused by this one. "No guns for the poors" is kinda their whole thing (@see the black panthers) - but poor white people are the majority of their support block. At the same time guns becoming unaffordable to "scary urbanites" will have the full approval of scared suburbanites.
This might honestly be the most politically savvy approach to gun control I've ever seen - it'll drive a wedge between the 2a voting crowd and the 2a funding crowd.
That's just going to make it harder for people that follow laws.
this might be an interesting solution for the really wacky shit?
Though you would need to do it on a more federal level.
The people shooting people will not be paying these taxes. Another law that punishes law abiding citizens.
No citizen should own a gun so its a good step to tax them more. Should be much higher though
Yeah, states like Utah, Arizona, Nevada are much too far away and will definitely stop you from buying guns and bullets in their states/ bringing them over the borders.
That will never happen luckily, at least not in my life. Would never give up my guns. Too much fun. Founding fathers had some great foresight to first separate the church (although the fucking Christians ignore the shit out of that) and second enshrine gun rights. Would be a real shame if a bunch of pansies were able to ruin that for us.
Not like most guns used in crimes are stolen or sold illegally after being purchased legally and the actual causes of gun deaths aren't related to how much guns cost.
Surely my home state isn't just trying to grandstand and figure out new revenue streams to find to not fund poor performing schools to improve performance or prospects, providing healthcare, addressing poor police training, helping the homeless, addressing working poverty, addressing high cost of living, improving job prospects with a living wages, or any of the other issues that will actually help to address gun deaths.
Criminals already have more than enough cash to buy plenty of guns at ridiculously high prices. This is only punishing people that follow the law.
Why ban or tax anything? criminals will get it anyway. Let’s legalize nukes for everyone!!!!
You lost me, are you saying the tax is effective by costing more or not effective by costing more.
All this does is impact legal gun owners and makes it so the poor don't ever have the means to defend themselves.
The only thing that increasing legal firearm costs does is keep the elites able to protect themselves and their lifestyles while making sure nobody can rise up against them.
This means more people are unable to practice with their guns, which has the opposite effect of making things safer.
Firearms are tools and an inalienable right for all people, not just the wealthy. The push by the elites to attack Gun Rights are so that nobody can oppose them when they keep increasing prices and their greed becomes an even greater burden to the rest of the population. Crime has been going down for decades, but the anti-gun groups still push the fear of guns.
The amount of spree shootings are almost insignificant for the majority of kids at schools, but they constantly make kids afraid of guns by pushing the shooter drills.
The fix to gun violence is fixing economic inequality. Stop treating the majority of the population as slaves and increase wages and break up the Oligopoly that controls goods and services. Stop allowing stock market manipulation and bribery. Start charging the wealthy people and multinational corporations taxes like they used to. Stop giving the wealthy people the ability to pay less Social Security taxes and let disabled people not be forced below the poverty line. Force the Stock Market to pay dividends instead of allowing stock price be the only value from investing. Finally, bring back pension funds, stop qualified immunity, regulate media companies again, and fix the election spending problems.
Every single one of those changes will do more to stop violence than increasing taxes on firearms and ammo. Hell, they started promoting smoking again because CHIP funding was down because too many people stopped smoking and the rich didn't want to pay for childhood health insurance.
I'm glad I don't live in California anymore, but criminals don't pay taxes and won't ever follow gun laws. Also, police have no duty to protect, so their only job in modern society is to fill out the paperwork when some criminal kills an unarmed person. Most police will shoot the civilians they were called to protect from the criminals and will be rewarded with paid vacation time. Making it more expensive to protect yourself and your family really is a bad call.
Oh, and just a FYI; when Biden reschedules Cannabis, it will make every dispensary under the control of the DEA. So the DEA can just close them all down or make up new rules to steal all the profit from Marijuana sales nationwide. The DEA will become the supplier of all Cannabis and everything that the last decade did for legalization will disappear.
Nobody in Government really has a clue and the Supreme Court will keep steamrolling our rights.
He's saying "crime pays," so the tax won't hurt them.
― Chris Rock
Classic
This is pretty fucking elitist.
If you don’t want guns go all in and ensure the elites cannot have them either.
Yes, but it's also a joke. He likely doesn't believe what he says. He's trying to make people laugh.
A world where only the wealthy elite have guns?
What could go right?
It's a simple, easily enforceable policy, with no constitutional hangups.
Gun deaths will absolutely plummet. Lives will be saved.
But sure, lets not do that because the rich yada yada yada.
Iirc that's how Australia does it. You need the whole strict background check and training and I believe you can only get ammo at the range.