The Bible story of the apple was probably originally a birds-and-the-bees type talk. Probably for girls.
The snake (of the trouser variety) tempts Eve with the forbidden fruit (hanky panky) that she shares with Adam. The consequence of which is painful childbirth.
They're even specifically stated to be naked for this situation.
It was an update of Prometheus.
He gave fire to humans
Lucifer (the lightbringer) brought humans the knowledge of agriculture. And humanity left behind the "garden". Which was an allegory for hunter/gather society.
Which led to the concept of land ownership, vasly increases how much personal property someone could accumulate, and was pretty shit for the average human.
Having them be naked was more to make people think of pre-agriculture as pre-human.
Can you imagine how hard it was to convince people to work 10-14 hours a day for someone else's profit when for thousands of years their ancestors had a much easier life?
Do you have any sources to back this up? I'm genuinely curious.
On a surface level this is an interesting interpretation. However, agriculture predates Abrahamic religions in that part of the world by thousands of years. As far as I know agrarian societies (and the concept of land ownership) were already well established.
The story of Prometheus doesn't even predate the earliest forms of Genesis by very much.
Also, if they meant Christianity conquered the Celts. No. That was mostly Julius Caesar, who slaughtered at least a quarter of them, enslaved another quarter and the remainder were tricked into shit land deals for wine and Roman weapons(just like their French, Spanish and British descendants would to most of the rest of the world 1500-1700 years later.)
I feel like between agriculture and hunter/gather, a garden makes a lot more sense as an allegory for agriculture.
Well, the whole "garden" thing is after a lot of translations...
Don't focus on the name, focus on how it's described.
It's a pretty on the nose description of a hunter/gather lifestyle. Obviously idealistic, but all evidence of hunter gather lifestyles we have, is it was pretty chill the vast majority of the time. Especially compared to early agriculture which was basically slave labor.
People needed a reason not to dip out and go back to living in the forests until human population increased to the point that wasn't possible.
The Abrahmic religions were a great tool for that, especially since it replaced earlier pagan religions.
Being a hunter/gatherer was much easier than agriculture?
Going off modern analogs and historic evidence, they had to work about 20 hours a week or even less...
Look at pretty much any other animal, most of their time is hanging out resting while either being ready to run after food or run away so they're not food
With a low population density, it wasn't that hard for a tribe to get enough food for everyone.
Life was pretty sweet for everyone from what we can tell.
The adult life expectancy for hunter-gatherers was higher than that of adults for most of the modern era. Some developed nations with healthcare access returned to similar levels, but not until the mid 20th century. It is now on the downturn again in some of these countries.
Adult life expectancy does not measure how easy life is, but it is arguably a good proxy for quality of life as we know that people with hard lives statistically die younger.
Agriculture introduced a lot of health and social issues. It allowed humans to explode in number and territory, but that wasn't because they were living better lives. They were sickly and stunted. Just like today, population expansion was likely enacted for the benefit of the top actors on the hierarchy chart (tribal leaders then, business leaders now). Strongly vertical hierarchies and the inequality associated with it do not appear to have regularly occurred prior to agriculture. Neither did widespread slavery. In 2023 there were still 50 million+ people enslaved in the world, even though slavery is now illegal virtually everywhere.
Another data point that backs up these trends is the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and Europe's subsequent Dark Age. Migration patterns changed, hierarchies were flattened, average quality of life and adult life expectancy went up.
Again, the ease of a life is a hard thing to judge. But many things that ail the common person to this day, did not exist prior to agriculture. I would say "the case can be made" that hunter/gatherer life was easier than agriculture, but I'm not sure how that would be established objectively (except through imperfect proxies such as adult life expectancy).
Somebody worked out that hunter/gatherers only averaged 4-5 hrs of work a day. I think I'm pulling this from a recent episode of 'No Such Thing as a Fish'
when for thousands of years their ancestors had a much easier life?
There was no such thing as an easy life pre-1900
No, it's pretty arguable that the first nations of the "Pacific North West" had it ridiculously good for a hunter-gatherer society.
Which is why they didn't progress into "more advanced" tools or housing; they didnt need to. For example, Western Red Cedar is very close to a perfect wood. Grows quickly, grows very straight, little to no knots, easily split and can be turned into fibers for clothing, but its also fairly strong and can be made into structural housing. And it's naturally rot resistant.
Hell, they made ocean capable dugout canoes from them, as well as everything else from homes to totem poles, artwork, furniture and clothing. Then for food they had rudimentary agriculture for some items, but most of the coastal diet was Pacific Salmon, caught though spears or nets.
As far as I understand it, the only aggressive culture in the region was the Haida because they lived on relatively small chain of islands. Everyone else basically just lived and partied.
Associating the original sin with sex is how you get people to confess and "donate" at collections, and it way overassumes what actually happened.
The original sin was theft, then lying about said theft, then blaming god for his (Adam's) own mistakes.
God asked them to baby make before all this. They did not try for baby until after all this went down.
I’ve wondered about this before, but it seems like a coincidence.
As I understand it, serpent type monsters are one of the oldest surviving concepts from ancient myths and stories, and are usually more associated with evil or chaos than sex.
I thought the original sun story was a story about how the evil overlord of the universe forbade humanity from the knowledge of good and evil and a nice snake showed us the path to the truth
I looked at it as an unintended evolution story, but your take is far better.
Man's happily swinging through the trees, picking fruit, easy life. Then he gets smart. Now babies have huge heads, causing miserable childbirth. Now man is aware of his mortality, something many animals don't understand.
Since we're no longer foraging, we have to farm, toil for our food. And we gotta wear clothes.
Can’t be farming with no clothes on man.
Even them Cahokia dudes wore a little belt thing when they hoeing that maize.
The problem with interpretation is that, if you can make a convincing argument about why something should be seen a specific way, youll have people see it that way. Same thing here. I agree that it's a possible interpretation, but it also just depends on who you're talking to. Point being others in the comments with wildly differing views, but with justifications that are equally as valid. Who knows what's the right interpretation, your guess is as good as anyone's.
It isn't rude to examine religious texts, myths, and traditions from an academic viewpoint, however.
The Bible is a religious text for a religion with a history of doing really bad things and many people who are currently leading said religion are still doing really bad things. Idgaf if I'm rude to bad people.
Nah, the nakedness was meant to symbolize humanity gaining self-awareness, which separates them from the purity and innocence of other animals. After Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, they realize they're naked and feel instinctively ashamed of that (as most people would, but regular animals wouldn't), so they cover themselves with leaves. In fact IIRC, the fact that they're covering themselves up is what tips off God that they ate the fruit.
Which begs the question what the actual intention behind the allegory was.
I suspect that pursuing knowledge is bad and you should not do it and trust in god instead? It fits with the church's then (and partially now) stance I suppose.
God said do/don't do a thing. Person didn't listen. Person is punished.
"The Church" isn't a part of this. This was Judaism. Christians inherited this.
It’s a much older story than the Catholic Church tho. Obviously older than Christianity as a whole right? It’s one of the oldest parts of the Torah/Old Testament. It did change over time, but I believe it has much more religious implications than political.
In any case, I believe it’s a story to explain our difference from animals, our apparent separation from creation while also being a part of it. An attempt, within the metaphysics of early Semitic religions, to answer one of the most fundamental questions humans always had: what are we and what are we doing here?
I also like some of the more esoteric interpretations, so idk
I've heard a theory that it was a myth based on the transition from hunter gatherers to farming. In the Euphrates and Tigris triangle, living conditions were very favourable for humans and may have seemed like paradise in hindsight. Then population pressure triggered the transition to farming, i.e. toiling "by the sweat of your brow".
You mean the all knowing all seeing deity didn't know about it until they got dressed?
They also successfully hid from Yahweh in the garden, and he had to search for them.
Children also don't feel shame about being naked until they gain the knowledge of sexuality. Parents would probably notice a child covering themselves up after an encounter of that nature.
I'm also assuming the story would be altered in a number of ways to change the meaning to the biblical one.
I think you are confusing what OP is saying with what the Bible says.
I took it more along the lines of “this story existed and was originally meant to teach young girls not to be tempted” and then the writers of the Bible came along. They used a common story to help with the point they were trying to get across.
This is not too far off from what is commonly known about pivoting the pagan ritual for the winter solstice and dressing up a pine tree. Now know as Christmas tree.
Yeah, but it's religion that makes people ashamed. Don't get me wrong. I'd prefer not to see your asshole. But other than that, it's probably learned shame more than anything.
Don't be such a prude! #FreeTheAnus #BungHoleTanning #BreezeOnYouButthole
For the sake of readers familiar only with Abrahamic traditions we might add “in that community.”[^1]
Their notion of nudity’s inherent sexual shame was weird in broader antiquity where mores re: nakedness were more often related to decorum or social status. Abrahamic religions all regard the human form as carnal, one way or another, so even today the weirdness persists in the laws and conventions of secular cultures, but still it isn’t universal.
[^1]: That community by modern estimates was a group of Judean captives in Babylon (near Baghdad) c. 540 BCE who began compiling the oral traditions (ancestral folk tales) that had been preserved in exile.
How would an omniscient, omnipotent Deity not know what happens in their own garden?
Nakedness could be a reference to vulnerability, eg naked truth.