US women are being jailed for having miscarriages -BBC 2021

What a hellhole of a country for woman. One step closer to Afghanistan.

Iran would be a better comparison with their civil war / religious war in 1979.
- its almost as though the chickens are coming home to roost. no?
- i think the craziest part of all that was that music was banned. i cant even fathom that
- Intersectionality matters. Every one of the male/straight/cis/white/neurotypical/Christian/rich/conservative boxes you check may put you further down the list of targets for fascists, but make no mistake, you will be targeted eventually and you'll have fewer and fewer people left to fight back alongside you.

This also has the added layer of jailing someone who is struggling with addiction. Oof.

This poor woman needed treatment, not a manslaughter conviction.

Willing to bet her state doesn't have comprehensive sex education or free/cheap contraception. Welcome to creating a problem so you can ensure a poor and sick population to imprison.
But what if her addiction killed someone, how would that not warrant jail?
- It didn't so you're not making a point.
- What if her addiction was a dog, would you pet it?
- Addiction is not something you can control. In a way she was sick and there is not very much she could have done. Sure, "don't take drugs while pregnant" or "don't get pregnant while being an addict" sound like obvious things, but drugs can cloud your judgement.
  And that is before you even think about what constitutes as a "someone". I don't even want to start the discussion on it, but there IS the question of when a fetus counts as another life/person.
- And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bike.

A couple years ago I watched one episode of this show where women are slaves. Stopped because it was so unrealistic.

Me today: The show was probably right.

In case you were unaware, that show was based on a book written in 1985, which was based on real events that had all already happened by that point (and had been, for time immemorial).
It continuing to happen now should only surprise (or seem unrealistic to) those not paying attention, probably because they aren't impacted personally. Yet.
The author has publicly said she's seeing it come true.
Really? I couldn't watch it because I thought it was too realistic.
- I had to stop watching it for the same reason.
Shit, Republicans probably stroke themselves at what a utopia Gilead is.
Gilead is ethnically diverse also though, so that probably puts them off a bit.

Can't imagine how much worse it is now three years later.

What the FUCK is going on in this theocratic third world country with cellphones and guns???? How the fuck is the US still considered a leading nation????

If you step outside the US you might find out we’re not viewed as leading.
Threatening? Manipulative? Maybe even petulant? Sure. But leading by fear first, everything else after. Now we add fear of our instability to the mix alongside with the normal fear of economics or bombs.
The only people saying we’re a leading nation are the ones wanting you to feel good and/or ignore all the bullshit we do inside and out. The ones that yell “leading” or “greatest” the loudest are the ones fucking us over the hardest.
- This pretty well sums up what ya said
Stop adhering to the propaganda pushed on you and you’ll see that America is not what it claims to be. America won’t heal until you HATE it.
- fr fr no cap 🧢
I’ll let Kris Kristofferson explain it from 1991: link

every jurisdiction that implements these barbaric laws absolutely deserves the massive and precipitous birthrate and population collapse they've just induced.

it's very hard to vote with your feet because moving is expensive and stressful and traumatic

but you know what's even costlier, even more stressful, even more traumatic? FUCKING INCARCERATION.

So... people will find a way. Even if they have to walk.

Even if they have to crawl.

They're leaving.

We've been saving since 2020, saw the writing on the wall then. We're moving this summer.
Can't afford to leave the country but at least we can get out of the South.
It was a hard decision. All I've ever known. I'm going to miss a lot of things. Especially the land and water.
I feel like I've lost my people. I don't trust people that look like me and talk like me. It makes me sad. It makes me angry when they think I'm like them and say hateful things about other different people.
I keep my mouth shut and we keep to ourselves as much as possible. We'll be out of here soon.
- Good luck
- If your screen name has anything to do with your profession, then you will be able to find work anywhere! Machinists are INCREDIBLY important and useful! I'm certain you'll be a great benefit to any community you join.

They arrested an addict whose drug use may have led to a miscarriage, or who may have just had a miscarriage completely unrelated to the drug use, or a mixture of multiple issues.

There is no difference between this and obesity, alcohol, smoking, or poor diet. Obesity has a voluntary aspect to it, and increases your chances of miscarriage. Eating non-nutritious foods, micro plastics, not taking prenatal vitamins can all contribute to miscarriage. Getting into a car accident while voluntarily driving while pregnant, staying with a violent husband who beats you while pregnant... I mean where do you draw the line at making the pregnant woman 100% responsible for anything that happens while she is pregnant?

Ideally women are never charged with a crime for seeking or attempting an abortion. That should settle the issue.
- It's unfortunate that the solution is as simple as it is and it's not being implemented.
I mean where do you draw the line at making the pregnant woman 100% responsible for anything that happens while she is pregnant?
Oh that's very easy. The line is drawn at being rich and white.
The cruelty against poor and preferably non-white women is the whole point of such laws.
I love all the shades of grey that arise when you open a pandora box of biopolitics.

Anyone who would arrest or prosecute someone because they had a miscarriage deserves to be beaten to death. In Minecraft.

You don't have to say "In Minecraft" it's not a direct threat.
- I had a very similar comment removed by some coward before.

What a shit hole country

The examiner did not determine a cause of death for the foetus, noting genetic anomaly, placenta abruption or maternal methamphetamine use could have been contributing factors.

How unusual is it for no cause of death to be determined in a post-birth-human case and there still be a murder conviction?

But according to some geniuses, both parties are same.

Considering the totality of the suffering they cause they're almost identical.
- If you actually believe that...

Did you know you can significantly degrade the integrity of concrete and cinder blocks using something like dexpan demolition grout and a drill?

Or just a few pounds of sugar when the concrete is wet. Concrete needs to be able to bond to the water molecules to cure, but dissolved sugar prevents that. So the concrete will never actually cure, and will crumble back into dust when it dries instead of turning solid. Anyone with a hardhat, safety vest, and work boots could blend into a large construction site long enough to lob a bag of sugar into a concrete mixer.
I’m not saying you should use it to oppose police stations, prisons, roadways immediately surrounding capitol buildings, etc from being built or repaired. But you could.
- I see this online, how true is it though? like do I need a bag of sugar or just a few sprinkles.

This BBC title is a click bait. It should have in the headlines a disclaimer that the person was using heavy drugs. The article says:

"When she arrived at hospital seeking treatment, Poolaw admitted to using illicit drugs while pregnant.

Later, the medical examiner's report, obtained by the BBC, found traces of methamphetamine in her unborn son's liver and brain.

The examiner did not determine a cause of death for the foetus, noting genetic anomaly, placenta abruption or maternal methamphetamine use could have been contributing factors."

And why should that be a manslaughter charge? It's a fucking fetus.
- Because she's a meth addict and they've worked hard to ensure she'll be beneath empathy for many folks.
- At 23/24 weeks of life a fetus has 55% - 70% of chance of surviving outside the mother as a regular human. Source: Wikipedia
  I don't know how old the fetus is, but if it was more than 23 weeks old, it is a human too.
  I would probably be accused of manslaughter if I injected methamphetamine on you during your sleep and you died from that.
Yup, and look at all the people raging in the comments that clearly didn't even get past the headline.
- yea or maybe they read far enough down the bbc article to see the string of historical examples. or maybe just the general context of this being published 2 years ago, and the criminalization of miscarriage has gotten way more prevalent. disingenuous af

And there it is. This is the main reason I'm effectively pro-choice, while technically being pro-life.

In case anyone cares, here's my specific policy preferences:

women can never be charged with a crime for seeking an abortion - it's the woman's right to do with her body as she chooses
the government should not be involved at all while miscarriage risk is high (say, 20 weeks or so)
doctors should be the targets for any illegal abortion procedure, and medical data cannot be the subject of a subpoena (that would otherwise violate the women's privacy)
after the initial "hands off" period, doctors (or anyone other than the mother) could only be charged with a crime for knowingly performing an abortion illegally, and abortions would be allowed to preserve the mother's life or to euthanize the child if complications would be significant
if a mother decides to not keep the baby, the delivery should be performed as early as is safe, and the costs would be covered by the state

I'm okay with abortion being technically illegal, but the above would likely make it legal for all intents and purposes, and I'm okay with that.

Tell me you understand nothing about the risks of pregnancy without telling me.
Natural miscarriages =/= abortions.
One is planned, controlled for, with after care. The other one can potentially lead to sepsis and death.
- I completely agree with you, and that's precisely why I'm effectively pro-choice. Women should have absolute privacy here.
  My wife has had a miscarriage before, and my coworker had to walk back a pregnancy after a miscarriage. I'm absolutely sympathetic to that, hence why I'm so adamant that privacy is always respected. I also think women have absolute control over what they do with their body, so even if they are trying to induce a miscarriage, I think the should be completely free to do that and never the subject of a criminal charge.
  I'm not sure how what I wrote could be misconstrued to the contrary.
Just say you hate women.
- Yeah seems that way. People who think it's okay for abortion to be illegal, whatever concessions they make, all seem to fall into the same few camps. Hate women, don't understand the risks and long term effects of pregnancy on the human body, or don't understand that an abortion is almost never done on what's considered a baby. Generally a venn diagram that is almost an even circle.
- Considering I'm married with kids and my wife is more against abortion than I am, I guess my wife also hates women. Good to know I guess.
I’m okay with abortion being technically illegal (...) doctors should be the targets for any illegal abortion procedure
Moderates Libertarian Discussion
The joke writes itself.
- How so? Abortion is a hotly debated topic among libertarians. Many are in favor on the grounds the women should be in complete control of whatever happens in their body. Those against point to the rights of the unborn as something to be protected as well (in a similar sense as a mentally unwell person who cannot assert their own rights).
  Both sides want privacy to be maintained, and that was the grounds for Roe v Wade. I'm arguing that we should have something like Roe v Wade on the books as law that makes abortion effectively legal, but have enough protection of the fetus that it's technically illegal if there's no medical reason for it to be performed.
  So in short, here's my proposed policy:
  first 20 weeks - no restrictions, and have that enshrined in law; there's too much at stake for the woman here - the only restriction is if the woman has willfully learned of the gender (again, needs to be proven without access to medical history)
  before viability - only doctors may be prosecuted, and only on the grounds of performing an abortion they knew to be medically unnecessary (must prove motive, in other words); again, no access to personal medical records, and there can maybe be a carve-out for women who didn't know they were pregnant until the second trimester
  after viability - only doctors may be prosecuted, and only on the grounds of medical necessity (as in, even an emergency delivery is impractical; doctors are held more liable since it would need to pass the "reasonable person" standard); if the mother chooses to not keep the baby, the delivery would be funded by the state
  That's a pretty loose policy which prioritizes the privacy of the mother at every turn and completely allows it during the most important period (when miscarriages are high and women are learning that they're pregnant).
And the government has an obligation to every child born to make sure it is healthy and happy from then on.
- Um, no? Parents have the obligation to make sure their kids are healthy and happy, and the state should only step in if parents either give up that responsibility or fail to uphold it. That's why we have child protection services, public schools, Medicaid, etc.
  But at the end of the day, it's not the governments job to take care of you or your children, that's your responsibility. The government should only step in if you're incapable or unwilling to do it yourself. It's a safety net, it's there to catch you.