196 Stands with Palestine, but those of you in the US should still vote in the general election.
I've been seeing a lot of anti-voting sentiment going around. Can't believe I have to say this, but you need to vote. Not only is there more to the election than just the president. (State policy, Senate, house), but not voting is not an act of protest. C'mon guys
100% agree with this. All of it.
I'm deeply dissatisfied with Biden. I'm angry with him for not pressuring Israel, and I was already angry at him even before that. And I will likely end up voting against him in the primary because of it. But realistically:
(1) He will be the Democratic nominee for President
(2) He is an infinitely better choice than the fascist who already attempted a coup once
(3) Either he or Trump will be the next president
There really is only one way to go in the general. Especially if you're here on Blahaj, which means you're either LGBTQ+ or at least friendly to us.
Cool; I didn't know Blahaj was a 2SLGBTQ+ instance. I just thought it was a kind and accepting space, like Beehaw.
Not to derail this thread too much, but I assume Allies are welcome to join? If Beehaw ends up leaving Lemmy, I'll need to make a new account somewhere.
I'm not the authority here, but my understanding is that yes, allies are welcome.
At least, I hope so, since I originally came here as an ally who was also questioning some things about myself.
Americans: do what you want in the primaries. Vote for Biden in the general, because he will be the nominee. I am not stoked about that, but that’s the choice our system gives us.
Non-Americans: please, please do a bit of research on how weird and fucked up and fractious our electoral system is before going off on someone for voting “undecided” in the primaries, which is how I voted myself. Compared to the nationally-organized stuff you guys seem to mostly rely on, ours could charitably be described as “intentionally byzantine”.
it's almost like the US is running a software written in the 1700s and that stopped receiving regular updates around the 1960s
That’s… actually not a bad way to describe it.
Also note that we stopped updating our BIOS in 1929, which is the direct cause of this.
The worst part is that your country isn't even as cool as ancient Byzantium...
i approve this message 🥰
Doing anything other than voting for Biden is essentially a vote for Trump.
This is such a garbage fucking take. A vote for Biden is a vote to delay fascism for 4 years, which we can use to fight it more effectively. You vote to buy time, and you use that time to fight. There's not much point in voting if we don't fight, but if you don't vote fighting will get a lot harder and things will get worse. Go read a book and touch some grass.
Did you actually think before posting this?
"Not eating pie this weekend is eating pie next weekend!"
"Might as well rear end someone. Not doing it now means you're going to do it later."
"Why lose weight? Not dying earlier means you're just going to die later."
Many people in Poland half a year ago felt similarly about ousting the ruling national conservatives as well during the last election with historically high turnout. 6 months in and the new government proved to be just as much of a reactionary enemy of the people as that of PiS. They almost fired at the protesting farmers recently
Nothing has changed in terms of abortion laws either, which still remain one of the most draconic in Europe. Recently a young Belarusian woman was murdered in downtown Warsaw in broad daylight.The only response of the "progressive" government? MORE FUNDING TO THE COPS, just roughly a year after another woman was severely traumatized and humiliated by the police just because she sought medical attention after taking an abortion pill. The so-called "lefts" don't even have enough respect for the female/AFAB voters to leave the government – why would they, after all they WILL employ the media to do this sort of fearmongering in 4 years to save their comfy positions and call it a day.
All this in a (de facto) multi-party system with relatively weak role of the president, so what sort of mental gymnastics must that be in the US where the Democrats were not able to do jackshit about Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade and there was and is not even a major party to hold them accountable for that, only the people capable of overthrowing their broken system.
And it's like that anywhere in the world in this rotten system – best those professional politicians screaming about fascism and creeping dictatorship can offer us is just "fascism with a human face". Their policies fuel the openly reactionary side precisely because they are just as morally bankrupt, worthless and entrenched.
In case of the Polish parliamentary left, some of them quite likely won't leave the government because they fear the other 2, bigger parties will seek to form one with the ultra-right Konfederacja. And if that's the case, then it speaks volumes about the condition of reformists who more and more haven't been able to form a government that offers anything of value to the broad working masses ever since the Soviet Union dissolved and they felt confident that now it's time to focus mostly on identity politics and economically become more and more in line with the neolibs, because without KGB backing, the Stalinized, bureaucratic communist parties who nonetheless weren't really a revolutionary threat lost relevance almost universally.
But then once capitalism's honeymoon caused by the opening up of new markets in the 90s was over and Marx was once again proven right by crisis after crisis, those foolish lackeys of the ruling class so certain about the end of history didn't see the writing on the wall and now are running like headless chickens wondering why after three decades of failing their traditional voter base they still hardly manage to stay in power just merely because some people know that the ultra-right is no alternative – and erroneously, but sometimes at least with some cynicism – assume that the reformists will take any notes and change their ways, much like hoping a narcissistic, abusive partner would change their ways – to no avail.
And don't act like voting is a blood oath. You're not pledging undying loyalty to a candidate - you're saying you'd prefer them over the other plausible options. Nobody gives a shit if they're your special favorite. You think we love these people? No. They're just the best we could do, arguing with thousands of other assholes.
If that's "the lesser evil," sure, why the fuck would you want more evil? It's not like staying home means nobody gets to be president.
Even Geralt of Rivia eventually had to admit the the path of 'choosing none of the evils' Just Does Not Work.
Yeah, a moral dilemma doesn't just go away if you ignore it. An outcome will happen. You are invited to influence it. Have an opinion, dammit.
And electing Trump would be different, somehow. The asshole who supported Israel even harder.
If you don't vote for biden then you too, are complicit in the genocide of Palestinians under Trump. You are personally complicit in the doubling or tripling of deaths, doubled or tripled export of weapons, and the outspoken sentiment of "kill them all" that Trump (your vote) actually expressed.
But good job trying to be a right wing fascist troll and guilting people into not voting so Trump wins.
It is exactly the same as the "personal carbon footprint" BS that corporations pushed to get the attention off the fact that 100 companies that individuals have no control of create over 70% of world emissions. Guilt people into accepting even worse outcomes and conditions by blaming them for things they literally cannot control.
And I don't think I should have to remind y'all that while neither candidate has a good outlook on Palestine... at least one won't end democracy in the US.
Dunno, looks like there's more than 2 candidates to me
No there really isn't, not the way US politics work.
Create a pledge to vote for a leftist candidate. If it surpasses ~85 million signatures, everyone who signed it will vote for the leftist candidate. Otherwise, they will all vote for Biden, since a minimum of 85 million votes are required to guarantee an election win.
I’d sign that shit, and I bet just about every leftist around here would, too. There’s literally no downside.
It is immensely difficult to get 85 people to agree to do something—never mind 85 million—but still not impossible. You almost definitely won’t be able to get 85 million signatures, but you’re more than welcome to try. If you don’t succeed, however, I encourage you to consider the realm of possibility when filling out your ballot. Voting for a third-party candidate and voting for Mickey Mouse—or a dead guy, or Vermin Supreme, or yourself—are equally irrelevant if the third-party candidate does not stand a chance of winning.
I wasn't telling people not to vote. I'm voting
On the other hand, not voting or voting uncommitted in the presidential primary is completely fine. Literally no issue with that
unexpected commentary to come from a mod.
based tho. https://www.vote.org/
I stand with Palestine, and I'll be voting in the US. Yes, I'm voting for Biden as the lesser of two evils, but I'm also voting for a whole lot of other really good people who are going up against some truly evil people. I've got people attacking my schools and libraries at the local level. Not voting to spite Biden will hurt my town a whole lot more than it would hurt Biden.
That's what I don't understand from the don't vote crowd.
Okay, nobody left leaning voted. Now what?
I'd argue it's not ultra-leftism if both options are reactionary. On the contrary, when going through such a turbulent period, to call yourself a socialist/Marxist and yet tail any anti-worker Democratic crisis cabinet is to compromise yourself just like the Mensheviks did for 8 months in 1917 when they happily took their warm seats and then didn't do shit to improve the desperate position of the Russian workers and denounce the Russian imperialism.
So what to do instead of voting? Join the revolutionary communists to end the endless cycle of disappointment and picking lesser evil in the system that gives no real agency to 99% of the society.
lol if you want to defend your community, join SRA instead of relying on a state that will not back down when tried, just like the French bourgeoisie used an enemy army to suppress an uprising by the French workers 150 years ago.
First of all, I will absolutely be voting in the general, for whoever has the backing of the Democrat party, whether that be Biden or someone else if something unforseen happens. However, I think it's important to recognize a few key key matters.
How can we resolve the former 2 statements? Simple. Protest loud, as much as you can, during the primaries. Force Biden's hand.
Just as we can hold people responsible if they vote third party during the general, or not voting, we can also hold Biden accountable. This isn't simply a matter like Single Payer Healthcare, which would take tremendous effort with the support of congress to pass, this is something in his hands.
I'll reiterate: if your goal is to help the Palestinian people, there is only one correct path: protest as much as you can, as early as you can, until Biden caves and ceases the genocide. If you do not protest Biden now, while we still have the chance to change his course, then we risk protests lasting even longer and hurting his chances during the General, backfiring.
The Condition for Victory is a swift, loud, uncontestable wake-up call for Biden, followed by rallied support once genuine, positive change is shown to happen. Biden has already started to feel the pressure, and has begun sending some petty aid. Biden cannot risk losing the general, and we cannot risk Biden losing the general either, nor can we stand by and watch Biden support genocide.
Vote in the Primary against Biden, and vote in the General for Biden.
Thank you. So tired of people who never vote in primaries complaining about how the candidates are bad.
Sucky candidates are not merely the product of failing to vote in the primaries. Both parties have systems that favor money and endorsement by legacy establishment figures over popularity, and additional policies are added when a popular antiestablishment candidate slips into office (like Occasio-Cortez).
It's telling in 2020 the DNC elected the most right-wing, establishment candidate that wasn't a far right Billionaire when we had numerous more moderate options.
The US is in the iron grip of boomer conservatives clinging to power as demonstrated by multiple officials succumbing to age and dementia. The people really don't have much say.
Not voting to protest is as effective as setting yourself on fire in a first world country.
It's not particularly effective, but is still a form of protest. It's important to recognize it as such, because:
At the end of the day, protestors are people with goals, and if you can convince them that this goal may be met more effectively otherwise, they can be allies.
This is objectively correct and based.
The sentiments in this thread (by large) are objectively correct and based as well. I am impressed with you, 196
o7
Oh, I'll be voting.
For Claudia De La Cruz.
EDIT: People hard mad about this lmao
Okay I mean this is marginally better, at least you're voting, but still until some sort of change happens a vote third party is a vote thrown away
I'm not suggesting voting third party or protest voting, I personally plan on voting for whoever has the Democrat party's backing come the general. However, I do want to ask, what do you believe is a realistic plan for gaining that change?
The people that are voting third party or not voting are doing so because they believe that's the best option for change. Even if I disagree with that, how can we show them a better path?
2000 was decided by hundreds of votes. 2020 was decided by thousands of votes. Don't play stupid games with democracy, to risk an outright fascist doing the horrible shit he's openly said he wants to do.
Only two candidates stand any chance of winning.
One of them tried subverting the 2020 election in at least seven distinct criminal attacks. And he's even more of an Israel fanboy. You gain absolutely fucking nothing by pretending your no-name no-chance nobody is some kind of statement. Make statements with your mouth. Use your ballot to prevent electing a dictator.
Looked her up. What a legend! Will definitely be using her name in plave of blank "vote third party" from here out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_de_la_Cruz
Ah a Trump supporter! Let me know how that works for you once you get Trump elected!
they clearly said they are supporting de la cruz
I'll proceed to describe in this post the gigantic amount of political change and sweeping reforms we will achieve when we valiantly protest against the system by not voting up until we get the turnout to 10%:
Yes! Under Trump's dictatorship there WILL sweeping changes, just not the ones you think. I mean ending democracy in this country will be a change. But you'll sleep well (until the gestapo comes for you) thinking "you showed them!".
Yep. We need A LOT more leftists to show up before protesting the vote is useful. As much as I hate Democrats, we're not there yet. I'll vote Biden, but I'll lose sleep over voting for that disgusting ghoul. Still better than the alternative, until the alternative includes dismantling our whole entire system.
Whats the point? To chose between disney fascist and a consevative fascist?
Tell that to women and trans people. If Trump wasn't elected we'd still have roe v Wade and federal judges that would strike down a lot of the anti trans laws being put out, plus those states wouldn't have been empowered to do so in the first place.
Lol. As if trans people in red states will be any better off with Biden as president again. Or trans people in blue states any worse under Trump. The feds aren't doing anything about all the states that are doing the most heinous shit to trans people already.
Don't threaten me with my sister's death to coerce me to support the genocidal regime currently in power.
They don't keep us safe. We keep us safe.
Vote for an independent candidate. People have this wild notion that voting for a third-party candidate means you're throwing your vote away.
You're not. You're voting for the candidate that best represents your values. People who say otherwise have fallen for the brainrot talking point that's been around since Ross Perot ran in '96.
^ this guy wants trump to win the election.
If only Perot had just won those extra 370 electoral college votes.
Nothing wild about it.
Either
or
If you decide for the latter you'll risk to never really vote again. Read the signs on the wall. It's the "What would I have done if I was a german under Hitler" phase, the USA citizens are in right now. If your prefer the stuff that's going on in Hungary under Orban or worse, go on, vote 3rd party.
Edit:
Germany is in a similar situation in the next federal parliament election although we got more weighty contenders in the parliament than only dems and reps. Our Biden vote equals to 2 parties (labour party and the greens) out of 6. The remaining 4 parties would be a Trump vote (AfD). The outcome of that election would define the politics for unforseeable future and was and is the reason for the mass protests in germany.
Edit 2:
We'd probably have more leeway as the AfD would not straight be elected but mainly the CDU who would choose the chancelor (Either Söder or the german Trump light Friedrich Merz). There would be many more compromises made with AfD (farfarfar right) with a CDU chancelor than under a new labor (SPD) and Greens chancelor. The dream would be if The Greens got a majority. Then Habeck would be chancelor.
How is it wise to vote for a candidate that has no discernible chance of winning the election, and is therefore incapable of actually representing my interests in government?
In the UK you can spoil your ballot if you're unhappy with the options and is a recorded vote. Perhaps there's something like that.
It's not a good tool if one party is likely, but not guaranteed, to win without your vote, but is much worse than the other. You should only spoil your ballot if your constituency is has a large enough majority that your vote won't matter at all, or none of the parties are less bad than the others.
If you're voting on the single issue of Palestine in the US presidential elections (not the primaries), then no state has a large enough majority to justify as spoiled ballots, and one party wants to support a genocide while the other wants to discourage it (even if they're doing a crap job of it), so there is a least bad option to vote for.
It’s not a good tool if one party is likely, but not guaranteed, to win without your vote, but is much worse than the other. You should only spoil your ballot if your constituency is has a large enough majority that your vote won’t matter at all, or none of the parties are less bad than the others.
The first instance is realistically the only case in which it would really matter that you spoiled your ballot, though. In the second example of when you might spoil your vote, it wouldn't really matter at all, precisely because they have a large enough majority.
Except we have an actual self proclaimed dictator, trying to gain power. These fucking "progressives" are helping him.
As someone with a modicum of common sense, it boggles my mind that these spoiled children think helping Trump seize power is a good idea for anyone including themselves.
I don't understand the motivation to spoil your vote. First past the post is the shittiest voting system but the rational response is to vote tactically instead, perhaps reduce the majority of your disliked incumbent. Even if you can't overturn a majority, MPs on smaller majorities may be less arrogant, and less likely to vote for unpopular policies. But sometimes you do overturn a majority. It will happen lots in this/next year's election.
I don't think any politician gives a shit about the numbers of spoiled ballots, they literally don't look even once at those numbers.
I live in maryland so my ballot doesn't matter much regardless for the presidential election. If Biden loses maryland he loses. And I won't be voting for him. The worst thing missing my vote will do for him is reducing his popular vote. Since that's mostly a talking point, good.
Always vote, whenever you have the option.
General election, primary, whatever.
You should always make your voice heard. There's also more important elections going on that are more directly impactful to you (i.e. local elections).
This! I'm voting in 5 different elections this year!
We had a special election to fill a vacated mayoral seat (only 10% of registered voters showed up) and then the recent primary. In May, we have a local election for city council and school board seats and also a separate run-off primary election. And then of course the general election in November.
if voting changed shit it would have been made illegal. don't legitimize slavery by acts of expressing gratitude for being able to pick your masters.
Most brain-dead take right here
Not sure how to tell you this, but the Right has spent years and millions of dollars trying to make voting illegal for its opponents.
So... I guess it does change shit, by your definition.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/03/us/politics/trump-voter-rolls.html
The people of USA succesfully beat two tyrannical systems in 18th and 19th century so why wouldn't they now if the current state of things deteriorates in that direction. And so did the Russians who have lived under the tsarist tyranny. Or the people oppressed by the colonial regimes who have not attained their independence as a gesture of good will. Or Cubans overthrowing Batista. Or Chileans ousting Pinochet. Or South Africans overthrowing the apartheid.
All of that required militancy. Polite pleas are not a language tyrants understand. But, by extension, blind faith in electoralism has failed when the KPD failed to respond with proper militancy to the Reichstag fire decree in 1933. The militancy must be proactive. One should not be deluded that a "progressive" government will welcome with open arms any advanced, massive expression of social anger any more than a reactionary one would. See France where it is basic street knowledge to wear at least a solid fucking helmet with plexiglass visor to any protest if you don't want to say, lose an eye under the oh-so-benevolvent rule of the liberal Macron.
Aaron Bushnell had a gun pointed at him as he died.
They are, especially in the south. Or did you sleep in on 1/6? Express your democratic right, or loose it.
in this day and age, there is no progressive wing of the bourgeoisie. Revolutionary communists fight for a workers’ government and do not give any support to any capitalist party or politician. (...) However, mass dissatisfaction with the Democrats does not mean a majority of Americans are right-wing reactionaries. On the contrary, most people merely want stability, good jobs and wages, and a safe and healthy place to raise a family. But this simply isn’t possible for everyone under capitalism. The exploitation of wage-labor by capital and the relentless drive for profits precludes this. As an arch-capitalist himself, Trump can’t square the circle either, and he is merely filling the political vacuum in a temporary and distorted way. If reelected, those workers attracted by his poisonous bravado will eventually realize that no American president can magically wave their problems away.
https://socialistrevolution.org/election-2024-why-genocide-joe-and-trumps-system-has-to-go/
Evil is evil and lesser evilism is a disgusting idea.
And when it comes to Trump, just as Hegel put it, historical necessity is often expressed through accident. Donald Trump is a giant, catastrophic accident for the capitalist class.
...slavery????
stagnant wages, no real influence on the politics because the Overton's window is so narrow and all major parties filled with out of touch millionaires and also just because the political system does not really benefit a common person in a meaningful way, the cost of living and debt crisis, needing to join the military for basic public services, creeping corporate censorship and oligopolization creating a generation of dependent, depressed people with growing self-censorship instinct?
Russian spies. Nice try.
but election rigging in post-Soviet Russia was actually started by the CIA to not let the communists get back to power in 1996 elections. Which is actually yet another proof that what is needed in any country really is a revolution and actual thorough democratization of every aspect of social and economic life possible, instead of neo-aristocratic electoralism. And that to that goal, a party able to lead a way towards it is needed (instead of trying to work within those that actually just prop up the system and will actively fight back when that is challenged (look up SJ Voralberg case in Austria as the most recent example, or even more glaringly, CPRF purging anti-war faction or the Blairite hostile takeover in Labour a couple years ago)), which was sadly lacking in Russia in the 90s as well as today.
Incredible how the majority of their comments come at hrs when most Americans are in bed..
Also I hope the Russian government is overthrown by it's people and that the right to the self determination of the myriad of ethnic groups of Russia is actually honored instead of them being used as a cannon fodder to oppress another nation.
its funny(?) how i only see posts criticising ppl for not voting/voting third options but i dont currently see anyone actually advocating for doing that
Might depend on how you sort or what instances you have blocked. I've seen a few personally, although not in blahaj.zone as far as I can remember.
Not vote squad was in this very apartment😞
It depends on defederation and users banned from this instance (lemmy.blahaj.zone), instance blocks don't have any affect on user visibility, just communities and posts to those communities.
There are multiple people advocating for it in this thread...
“The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles.
With either of those parties in power one thing is always certain and that is that the capitalist class is in the saddle and the working class under the saddle.
Under the administration of both these parties the means of production are private property, production is carried forward for capitalist profit purely, markets are glutted and industry paralyzed, workingmen become tramps and criminals while injunctions, soldiers and riot guns are brought into action to preserve ‘law and order’ in the chaotic carnival of capitalistic anarchy.
Deny it as may the cunning capitalists who are clear-sighted enough to perceive it, or ignore it as may the torpid workers who are too blind and unthinking to see it, the struggle in which we are engaged today is a class struggle, and as the toiling millions come to see and understand it and rally to the political standard of their class, they will drive all capitalist parties
of whatever name into the same party, and the class struggle will then be so clearly revealed that the hosts of labor will find their true place in the conflict and strike the united and decisive blow that will destroy slavery and achieve their full and final emancipation.” - Eugene V. Debs
I stand with Israeli and Palestinian civilians, all of whom are victims of Hamas and the Netanyahu regime.
If you are against both dominants in a two-party system, vote for the party more likely to win, so that the margin would become bigger, the winning party would split and the losing party would have unpredictable change.
I'm in the second world, just thinking.
In the US this seems to have already happened once, in the 50s.
Browbeating people into voting is not helpful.
Vote for your class. Ignore the ideology.
I remembered South Park
Seriously. I get feeling like you don't have much of a choice, but not voting is just giving up. Like, you're actively removing the little choice you have and handing democracy over to an overt fascist.
Literally
Literally, indeed. (An up vote wasn't enough)
Third party candidates still exist and are legitimate options to vote for despite what everyone wants you to believe.
3rd party is a lost vote. Parties need to start small and build. Everyone knows this.
Maybe for some local elections. But you really need heavy support, otherwise you're dividing the vote which can lead to more harm. Some places have rank based voting now though which makes it possible to vote for 3rd parties without dividing the vote. Hopefully that becomes more common.
In the realities of the US electoral system, a vote for a third party is akin to a vote for Trump. Twist and spin all you want, but that’s reality.
Anyone who argues this is either naive, or a disinformation Russian asset.
I'm voting for a 3rd party in the general bc my state is a staunchly blue state (every presidential election since 1972) so my vote counts more that way. If I lived in a swing state like WI, PA, GA, AZ, CO, etc, I would definitely vote Dem.
both wouldn't be happy if you wanted actual democracy (like economic democracy for instance). both will utilize the police and alphabet agencies if they will find it necessary. PRISM was exposed under Obama. Democrats Kennedy and Johnson did not stop COINTELPRO. I'm not even convinced by reducing this to which of them will be weaker and less competent, like you realize the senile octogenarian Biden would fit the description, but that actually makes it easier to control him. Trump on the other hand is harder to control for his own trustees, but at the same time would mean way less stability. Ousting either along with the whole system that brought them into power is a must and I'm quite convinced that it will not be an easy task in either case, especially if you consider that the police force is always a fertile ground for all of the most disgusting trash of the ruling class, like homophobia, racism or hatred towards the poor. Democrats can promise defending the police but will they? Or wouldn't that be shooting themselves not in one foot, but both?
And lastly, speaking of another Trumpist coup. The situation in the US is not yet comparable with e.g. Spain in the 30s. But back to Biden's incompetency, y'all should study how the Azaña's government absolutely botched the coup in July 1936. Then the lack of sufficient cynicism towards the government with "anarchists" taking ministerial positions and disarming the workers was what largely contributed to the Francoist triumph. With no illusions towards the government, there would be no mechanism to blunt the militant social tensions to come but force. And if you are afraid to actually fight for your ideas, you're already unfree.