Why can't I just buy it without being charged for preinstalled spyware?
Image description:
Shopping for a laptop as a Linux user:
Screenshot from the Simpsons where Otto is talking to Marge and Homer standing next to a window in their house with a caption "Oh wow, windows!... I don't think I can afford this place."
Buy a Framework, System76 or something else with first class Linux support.
Love their concept but I just can't afford it. My problem isn't finding a machine that works well with Linux. It's finding a machine that I can afford. And the stupid windows fee for something I will immediately uninstall is a big deal to me.
Have you considered second hand? I'm not talking second hand specifically for framework or other mentioned brands, but just in general.
I feel it is not yet normalized to consider second hand for electronics, yet you can find quite some good deals. Not everything needs to be bought new, especially if you are price sensitive. One generation or 2 older hardware bought second hand can be better and cheaper than new.
Framework has their 11th gen Intel laptops right now as a barebones for $499 USD from B-stock, new components, if that interests you.
Otherwise, Chromebooks that you can flash replacement coreboot are another good option.
Oems like dell pay almost nothing for their windows license. Compared to the cost of the laptop it’s negligible.
Buy used
If you uninstall Windows you can get a refund for it.
Pinebook Pro?
Dell sells Linux laptops too don’t they?
Every laptop manufacturers sell linux laptops they just dont know it.
Framework is a bit different, it has direct support for their hardware drivers on many linux distros and endorses linux to be installed on their laptops.
Yes, but all the budget laptops from them I can find don't have that option. Only a few select higher-end gaming models come with Linux.
Especially now that they're selling refurbished models at a heavy discount, you can get into the Framework ecosystem pretty easily and upgrade the mainboard later.
Not to be that "aktchually" guy, but Microsoft actually ends up paying OEM's to ship with Windows, in order to drive costs down to be more affordable than competitors. You can still reimage with Linux, which I know, is an extra step from it shipping with Linux, but in a wild turn of events, we can thank Microsoft for driving down the prices of our to-be-Linux machines ;)
Have never seen this as a consumer though. I remember buying a laptop 10 years ago without OS since it was cheaper than same model with preinstalled Windows. Checked a random laptop and same still applies, version with Windows costs 30 eur more in my local webshop for what seems to be the same model with same specifications (No English available, use translate if needed):
You can add framework laptops to that list too.
To have windows you pay extra, no os is free
I think that was only true back in the 90s, when there were still other OSes to compete against Windows, like OS/2, Solaris and BeOS late in the decade. Once Microsoft effectively dominated the consumer PC market (2000s?), they turned around to threaten to never do business with OEMs that dared to bundle competitors' OS. They also did something similar in Japan, which destroyed NEC (who created the PC-88 and PC-98, the most popular 80s and early 90s computers there) dominance.
I haven't met a Linux user that would consider leaving the factory installed OS instead of immediately blowing it out and installing their own
This route does still count as a Windows sale and you still pay for the license.
So if the manufacturer offers a "no os" option, rather than any Linux option, it's still a better choice than "Windows" if you know you will reimage to something else anyway.
Friend: "What's your system specs?"
Me: "12-core Ryzen CPU, 64GB RAM, 3080ti GPU"
F: "Nice. What games do you play?"
M: "Games...? Is that what else people do with these things?"
"Your laptop's sticker price already includes windows license fee. You're welcome!"
-- Microsoft
Don't normal countries rebate the fee when you ask for a systemless PC?
In Europe, laptops without an operating system (often referred to as DOS installed) are available. Prices start from 300 EUR.
I am in Europe but these laptops are rare in the low price end unfortunately.
Perhaps it depends on the country. In any case, I recommend buying the laptop that suits you best in terms of price and not paying attention to the operating system. I just set a filter in the online store for "Ryzen 5" and I don't see any difference in price between laptops with Windows and laptops without the operating system. It's better to find out how well the laptop supports Linux.
The bigger issue for me is every device advertised to be linux based and privacy oriented is >400$ usually around 700-800$
I understand that tech savy IT people are usually financially cushy enough that they can eat a almost thousand dollar bill on their laptop and not think twice about it but man I just can't ever see myself willing to shell out that much cash for a fancy laptop with physical kill switches or modularbility. Bring that price tag down a couple hundred dollars system 76 and Purism, then well talk. Until then the dude on ebay selling librebooted ghostpads are more likely to get my money.
I'm pretty sure modulerabilty is not a word, but who's counting. You can get an ok spec laptop for around $500 if you don't mind the build (thin or fancy). As far as privacy goes it's all within your hands, skipping a select few data hungry manufacturers no-one restricts you from installing your favourite kali
A lot of the time you aren't actually paying for the license afaik. If you look at a pre built and spec it out on PC part picker, the pre built can often come at a lower price bc the PC is subsidized with payment from the bloatware that is pre installed (think McAfee). Microsoft also sells the licenses in bulk to the store for huge discounts. Windows business model is a lot more about selling you 365 and your data than the operating system.
buy from the official website, you can select "no operating system" there. (did that last time from Lenovo's site)
They only offer that option for some models. For everything else, you have to select the Windows version with no added cost, and just eat the loss of the baked-in Windows tax.
please share how I can configure a T14 AMD Gen 4 with "no operating system"
cuz I have never seen "no operating system" on Lenovo's site and I've bought three thinkpads from them in the past four years!
I couldn't find that either. I did find this page for Linux options but only has one laptop. https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops/?visibleDatas=857%3A14%22%20-%2014.9%22%2C15%22%20-%2016.9%22
is it a region locked thing, i can select it from the german site: "Schau mal hier Junge" https://www.lenovo.com/de/de/configurator/cto/index.html?bundleId=21K3CTO1WWDE2
There are new laptops without os preinstalled (freedos actually installed) i bought my hp255g8 Ryzen 5700u laptop few years ago that way
My laptop came preinstalled with Linux :)
Get a used ThinkPad, OP
Have two already.
Damn that's more than me (I have 1)
Here in the EU there are a few companies selling rebranded Tongfang or Clevo barebones without an OS. Some are Linux-oriented like Tuxedo, Slimbook or LaptopmetLinux, some are general-purpose or gaming oriented like Schenker/XMG.
Slimbook Elemental 14 start at around 600€, Tuxedo Aura 14 starts at around 840€ for what looks to be the same SKU but a bit more storage.
Where are you located and what's your budget ? It might help point you in the right direction.
It would be cheaper also
For them. They would just widen the margin and charge you just as much.
That wasn't my experience buying a laptop, but it could be possible
Oh wow linux laptop, so cheap, while I appreciate their existence, if you're on a budget an old (t480,t440p) lenovo will do fine for most purposes, otherwise build a desktop.
Check out system76
A little overpriced but nice hardware and support
I've got a System76 Pangolin. It's ok for the price (a bit pricey).I'm going with frame.work next though - while frame.work is even pricier, the upgradability is to die for.
Buy used ThinkPad.
Even new Lenovo laptops can usually be bought direct without Windows
Have two already, need something new, can't be used. Please read the other comments before commenting, this is like the 7th one saying the same thing.
Last three laptops I've bought, the Windows install never saw the light of day.
I was about to make a joke about how all Linux gaming laptops are Nvidia-based, but it looks like that's finally changing.
Lenovo has official support for Ubuntu on all laptops which translates very well to other distros. IMO the Thinkbook gen 6 having fully upgradable ram and decent specs is a really good deal for a Linux laptop *when on sale
And AFAIK they offer the option to customize your laptop and there is also an OS option. Was there where I ordered mine. Had the choice of 2 Linux distros I believe or just no OS at all which was my choice.
I had 2 (actully much more) options when buying my laptop. Good laptop with windows or a liitle better laptop without windows for 200€ less.
It's sad when you figure out why most people are broke.
Are you only looking for a laptop? Others have said a lot about it. I want to add that in desktop\net-top\mini-pc markets it's easier to encounter no-OS solutions. Some of them are very cheap and small, that small you can mount them behind a monitor and call it a day. I'm sorry if it's not up your lane.
Check out TUXEDO
Get a Framework. You won't be disappointed.
Framework is selling their previous gen over production b-stock at $500 now.
But they have been good so far providing upgradability in their first gen products to the 2nd gen.
You can save a heap of money when it's time to upgrade.
it's way too expensive for me
You could try getting a Chromebook and installing whatever distro you want on there? I know it doesn’t avoid the pre-installed spyware, but at least it’s free so you’re not loosing money paying for a license. And Chromebooks these days are made in a wide range from very inexpensive to sorta-premium.
Microsoft would make more from continued Windows usage (between selling data and products like Office) then that license key sold in volume to the OEM.
I don't get it. I wouldn't need to have Linux preinstalled. I could just get... Literally any laptop and then only ever boot up Windows to download my preferred distro, if I don't already have a USB ready.
The point is that you have to pay for that windows that you're going to erase anyways. It's not free.
In my experience, unless it's the professional version of windows, laptops with windows tend to be a little cheaper than blank laptops. Pretty sure Microsoft actually pays manufactures to use Windows.
Penguin t4 starts at $799.00.
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-t4-gnulinux-laptop
eBay!
Its pretty easy to to replace the hard drive in most laptops with an empty one then install either linux or a stripped down version of windows.
I was going to say - my next laptop, I’m just buying the cheapest SSD option, maxing out the RAM, and then I’ll swap the SSD. Although I’m probably already behind the times - I imagine m2 is the new standard storage in laptops now.
The point is that you have to pay for the preinstalled windows. Obviously I can install whatever I like on the laptop.
its typically not good enough of a product to buy.
feel free to disagree.
Microsoft is not dominating the PC market like you think they are. Nowadays, if you’re in school, and the school tells you to use a computer, it’s probably going to be a Chromebook. Google has made it much cheaper for enterprises and schools to afford chromebooks, by giving them deals and building protocols that would specifically be useful in a school or work environment, and in some cases, forcing students/parents to buy Chromebooks specifically. And more rarely, requiring people to use them at work.
Also, I feel like this whole post completely disregards the existence of Chromebooks in general. They’re Linux computers. And they’re what most of the next generation are learning to use at school, and therefore, what most of them will probably buy when they buy a laptop. You know, assuming they didn’t think it was awful.
Nobody is forcing you to buy a computer with Windows pre-installed on it. People just enjoy hating on Windows. You basically can’t use Linux without having enough know-how to install it yourself anyway. Just delete Windows. Or is the Linux gang really just looking for every little thing to complain about? I think that’s what it is. You guys should spend more time pointing out why Linux should be the status quo, instead of complaining about the current status quo. It gets you nowhere with people who use Windows, and the Apple people laugh at you. So you’re essentially just circle jerking your favorite penguin. Why? Windows didn’t steal your girl. It's an alternative. Buy a laptop that doesn't have an operating system on it, if you're so upset about it. They exist. It took me less than a minute to Google it. Want Linux on it? Buy a Chromebook. The world already conforms to you, and yet you still complain.
I hate that nowadays everything comes with pre-installed spyware and that they charge you for it makes it even worse..
Ffs I just want devices that I own to not spy on me, and I can't even buy them anymore..
Each of them require flashing a custom privacy respecting OS onto it,
and that's a real problem..
Nice list, I would add routers (not everywhere). But for example here in Germany you get a device from your ISP for free but don't try to change the DNS settings because your ISP wants to know what you are doing online.
Only alternative is a fritzbox which is highly overpriced for a simple router+modem. >200€ for a cablerouter.
I had to buy a used fritzbox, need to nearly hacked them for activating the deactivated bridge-mode and put a cheap Asus router on it with flashed openwrt.
I needed 6 months for the whole setup.
Unless you are using DoH or DoT it does not matter which DNS server you have configured on the modem/router, DNS requests are sent as plain text so your ISP can still see them and will know which sites you are seeing.
OpenWRT with DoH or DoT bypasses that problem, alternatively a VPN with custom DNS. Also a Pihole or Adguard instance never hurt. But at the end of the day someome owns those DNS servers and will likely log your use.
You can double nat if you want.
You can't just buy a modem? And modems are really that pricey where you are?. I can get a modem router combo for $150. Maybe $200 if I want to splurge a little bit that meets most of my needs. And then if you're really worried about like linksys OS or something like that, you can just flash DDWRT onto it? I'm not saying the United States service providers are better, but does Germany service providers really make it that complicated to just have your own modem? Because it's a super simple process in America. 6 months just seems insane to set up a router and modem
The tv thing is the most insane. Like I grew up used to knowing phones are all tapped and computers too. But I pay to not have ads on tv but my tv itself has ads. And I can run a Linux computer and we’re getting somewhere with spyware and ad free phones even if it’s not yet where I need to switch, but tv, fucking hell
It's not even the spyware or ads that piss me off the most about "smart" TVs, it's how they always seem to lag to fucking shit. I've mostly used lower end ones, but even a few mid range ones I've used are still laggy pieces of shit that obviously have the cheapest components imaginable. Which for a normal tv is fine, expected even! But on a "smart" tv where to do anything at all you have to dig through their shitty, counter intuitive "smart" menu, it just sucks.
And then you want to watch some normal tv after a long day and the fuckin thing won't let you because it demands it installs an update, which thanks to those cheap components, takes far longer than it should
AFAIK, you can flash a de-googled version of Android TV on some devices, look up LineageOS' website.
Unfortunately it's concept which were in the past.Nowdays u are not owning ur device,you are actually just renting it. Unless new laws are passed that will prohibit such a business model.
I do own my devices.
Companies want you to not own the devices, and rent them through a subscription model,
however I refuse to do that.
If you do that / fall for that,
then you're part of the problem making such a future a reality..
Yeah and try to load a custom OS into anything other than an computer is a nightmare, just last week while trying to install twrp recovery and flash a custom ROM which I been doing for quite some while hard bricked my phone, mad ended up fucking it completely by trying to fix it with mtkclient.
I build computers and sell them, and will put whatever OS you want on them, except Windows. If you want windows, I take $150 off the price of the tower.
I'm a developer, modder and privacy advocate, I know how to put a custom OS on my hardware, but I'm a minority.
However the average joe does not,
and they, the majority,
are forced into using spyware.
Often without them even knowing so,
which is a true issue
You give a discount if people use windows?
Apple spyware? Cute that you make shit up to justify your victimhood. The vendors that install actual spyware appreciate your ignorance.
Right, Apple is a champion of open source and transparency.
Educate yourself fruity,
Apple does spy on you