What PC is like the "thinkpad" of PCs?
Hello. Many of the older thinkpads were regarded as being peak for the ability to repair and easily see into them at both the hardware and software levels.
I was wondering, what PC, if any, is similar in this regard? Aside from building your own PC ofc. Any opinions are welcome. Thank you.
Any PC you build yourself?
Yes.
Aside from building your own PC ofc.
Are you talking about a pre-built PC that has decent repairability? If so you'd really just want to avoid brands that use proprietary or irregular parts. For example Dell Optiplex computers can be bought cheap but they use their own power supply and some have smaller cases that might not fit most graphics gards.
Is there any reason you are posting this to a privacy community? Were you hoping for something that is Libre/Core boot compatible like some ThinkPads are?
I was looking for something that I'm confident doesn't spy at the hardware level.
I used Thinkpads as an example because after the early 2010 ones, they got those weird i7 (I believe) processors and we don't know much of what they do but some speculate they record keystrokes and phone data home.
What PC can you trust has good hardware in privacy? I don't want to buy a PC and run Linux, trying my best, and the thing spies at the hardware level.
They absolutely do not record keystrokes and phone that home. You’re talking about the Intel Management Engine, which is completely useless to almost everyone, but there’s no evidence that it spies on you. There have been security vulnerabilities found in it that could let someone else compromise your system (notably: only if you’ve provisioned Intel Standard Manageability), but there is practically zero chance that Intel is doing that or even selling that sort of capability.
How confident do you need to be? I don't think I've seen any convincing evidence of any firmware spying in PC components.
Well, except the NSA's Clipper chip, but I don't think that really ever got implemented.
Well you can find a list of Libreboot compatible hardware here. I feel like your biggest issue, especially if you are relying on a prebuilt Windows PC, is all the bloatware they come with on top of Windows itself.
Lenovo uses proprietary, closed source firmware. There's no way to know what it's doing.
The Thinkpad
Just carefully read the manual for the model you're interested in. Switching out a keyboard on T14s Gen1 is hell, as an example.
Not really true any more. The build quality isn't as good as it used to be and the upgradability has suffered too.
While I agree, it's hard to find a cheap and reliable laptop that's not a thinkpad. The keyboards have suffered and some of the models are harder to repair. But they're still spill proof, tough, and have lots of ports. I don't regret my thinkpad t14 gen 3 purchase. I might get a thinkpad t14 gen 2 soon.
no fucking way chat is this real
By PC do you mean a desktop? Guess any desktop you build yourself. Are there features you want like the best Linux support or something?
Framework is the best option these days for upgrades and repairs
Aren't they really expensive? Sure if you have the money, but what do you recommend as a budget option?
Pay now or pay later.
Well ThinkPad back in the days weren't cheap either but then even a 2nd hand one could still last a while and one could still get them fixed.
I got my PC built for me by a local computer shop for $100. Worth it to me for the time it saved plus they did a 24 hour stress test on it to make sure all the components worked.
There is no "budget option" if you value repairability, nor has there ever been. The best you can do is buy a secondhand ThinkPad or other workstation laptop. If you don't like that option, make more money.
Are you looking for a laptop or a desktop machine?
Framework laptops seems kinda cool but they don't ship to me yet so I have no personal experience. https://frame.work/
Many computer stores offer to build your computer from parts for a fee, that would give you the custom PC without building yourself.
Can recommend a framework as a laptop. It also allows you to just use the motherboard as a standalone machine. But it being laptop hardware and only having one m.2 slot might be a deterrent for OP.
For a laptop, Framework is absolutely peak for repair and upgradability. They even offer newer generation motherboards that continue to work with older generation framework laptops. Enabling you to upgrade the core components while not having to rebuy the chassis, monitor, etc.
For a desktop, either build one yourself or buy from one of the companies that assemble it for you. Companies like Maingear.
I recommend NOT getting a PC in a fancy thin case. Had to cut a hole when upgrading.
A friend of mine once had fancy thin Fujitsu computer with all sorts of non-standard shenanigans. Upgrading anything other than the HDD (yes, it was many many years ago) and RAM was a complete nightmare. In the end, it was easier to sell the whole thing and spend to money + some extra on a better computer.
If you're interested, the Dell T1650 is currently supported by Libreboot. I use it for everything; it has a Xeon E3 1275 V2, 32GB DDR3L ECC RAM, NVIDIA 2080 SUPER, 2x4TB HDD (RAID 1), 1TB NVMe M.2 (PCIe x4 adapter needed), and a 700W PSU (EVGA 700BR). It handles all my games, and I use Proxmox VE as my host, allowing me to create virtual machines where I can passthrough my GPU and use anything proprietary in the VM. Even the GPU drivers can be passed through (no need to install on the host), so essentially, I'm running 100% free software on my host.
Obviously, nothing can be 100% FOSS in the hardware (proprietary ECs, proprietary CPU microcode, proprietary storage firmware, etc.), BUT you can free the BIOS. There is currently a blob needed for the PCIe x16 slot, but it can be reverse-engineered in the future – not sure if there is anything else; I'll have to ask. There is one board coming soon that I know can be made blobless in the BIOS, and that is the Dell Optiplex 9020 MT. It's a Haswell board capable of using an i7 4790K with AVX2 instructions. I'm actually the first person to use this board, as I'm the one who made the port along with some help from the Libreboot team. The board is currently in its testing phase still, but soon in the next couple weeks we will make it freely availble.
This is super cheap hardware; you can find the whole PC on eBay for like $50-$60, or you can just buy the motherboard for like $15-$25. I bought only the motherboard because I'm using it in my gaming computer case. Also, you don't even need any fancy flashing equipment, all you need is a insulated screwdriver to short one of the SERVICE_MODE pins on the motherboard to unlock the BIOS chip, which then allows you to flash Libreboot through your OS. Libreboot is more secure than any non-free BIOS/UEFI. At least with Libreboot, you can have transparency, and you get new updates with better features coming out.
For example, Libreboot supported Argon2 encryption in GRUB for fully encrypting your storage drive. This allows you to encrypt the /boot partition and fully encrypt your disk with ease when installing a fresh operating system. Also, you can run Windows on the host with Libreboot, it is supported but not officially. I highly recommend Libreboot, as you can tell.
Honestly, any enterprise OEM will be similar, such as Dell or Lenovo. Yes, their mainboards are proprietary, but you can easily source them from legitimate parts vendors. That's why there are so many refurbished Optiplexes and ThinkCentres on Amazon. They're trivial to repair and most don't even require tools.
You cannot easily upgrade to a dedicated GPU unless replacing an existing unit, which is standard for laptops as well.
I see core 2 dou optiplex computers in offices to this day, they run pretty good for a computer that had Windows XP out of the box at one point.
This tread is full of random comments about framework, when the op clearly asked about PCs
Framework absolutely makes PCs. Most notably in the laptop form factor.
Framework
Framework
System76. 3mdeb.com also sells corebooted Desktops which are using MSI motherboards, brobably well repairable too.
Lol how the most liked comments are literally anticomments
I don't have a recommendation but I can point you to Gamers Nexus YouTube channel / website and filter on prebuilts to see reviews.
Big names like Dell HP and Lenovo are bad for ability to repair/upgrade. Although I do love buying their old servers because there are so many cheap ones on eBay.
All respect to Steve, but in this regard he's wrong - the parts might be proprietary in a lot of regards, but these machines are repairable af, they're just not aimed at the average consumer. Local site support will rock up to your desk and stick a new display adapter in for some extra monitors or take them away and swap out broken parts and have the same PC on your desk next day. Big enterprises buy these machines precisely because they're repairable and upgradable and getting stock typically isn't an issue.
That only applies to a large corporation with contracts.
and upgradable
If it's not something that can go in a slot for Dell HP and Lenovo there is no upgrade. They aren't going to swap an upgraded CPU because Dell doesn't do official bios patches to upgrade old PC's to cpus that come out later. Nor can you get a new motherboard dropped in an old Dell/HP/Lenovo chassis because of the power supply requirements/changes.
Edit: I couldn't even put a modern GPU in my old Dell Xeon because the power supply didn't put out the watts. I had to find a weird Dell to ATX converter cable off of eBay and Dremel the Dell case a little so the regular ATX would fit.
The name is Gamers Nexus, not Corporate IT Nexus.
Framework.
But if you are really opposed to that option for whatever reason, you can maybe take a look at iFixit's repair scores.
Tuxedo
Dell Optiplex... You can buy them used all over still. Find one with a decent processor and upgrade everything else. The fans are easy to find and replace. I've got a Linux based MCPC that's about a decade old that's still going strong. I've got one for my kids with Linux on it. I've bought several for elderly relatives and upgraded the ram and drive to ssd. They really just seem to go forever.
Idk, but I’ll tell you Dell and HP desktops are the opposite of the Thinkpad. Every part they can make proprietary, they do make proprietary.
Cannot be upgraded or replaced with off the shelf parts.
If your system dies, you’re expected to just buy a new one and chuck the old one in the bin.
I haven't been in a Dell in a long time but I can confirm HP is still the WORST.
Well, I haven't been in an HP in a long time, but them forcing proprietary ink in their printers or bricking it is enough for me to not buy their computers as well (laptops or desktops).
I have had several used dell / hp motherboards, the only thing proprietary was that some were 12V only and needed a 6 usd adapter to work with regular atx psus.
And also the power button connector, you have to figure out which pins are the ones that turn the PC on.
New models integrate all the front IO into the motherboard, so they really only work with the case from the manufacturer. Like this and this.
To be fair, everything about a Thinkpad is proprietary too. It's accepted because it's a laptop.
A lot of things, yes, but not everything.
This is from iFixit:
Lenovo ThinkPad T14 Gen 3 2022 PROS Most repairs are very straightforward and require only basic tools. The keyboard replacement procedure is best in class. CONS Partially soldered memory and I/O ports hinder certain repairs.It scores 7/10 on their repairability meter. Definitely not the best, but far from the worst.
I own a Dell T1650 and Dell Optiplex 9020, and yes you are correct about them making everything proprietary, but the motherboard can still be used as long as you have the adapters for it. You will need to DIY, or buy a custom cable from a vendor that makes them for the motherboard. I use a Dell Optiplex 9020 MT motherboard in my NZXT case, I use a EVGA 700BR, a custom 24 pin to 8 pin connector, and a molex to fan adapter cable for my other fans, and everything works great! Also, I added Libreboot support for it as well :D
CPU FAN: https://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-i70-CPU-RR-I70-20PK-R1/dp/B07QNN9MW3/ref=pd_aw_ci_mcx_mh_mcx_views_0?pd_rd_w=uGY4W&content-id=amzn1.sym.0e5c7f8b-153f-45ea-a1fd-9585fc3a0cd5%3Aamzn1.symc.2b06b7e8-a86c-4e6e-b02c-90d58278f4f1&pf_rd_p=0e5c7f8b-153f-45ea-a1fd-9585fc3a0cd5&pf_rd_r=NJ3TZ775JESQ13BRMSND&pd_rd_wg=031k7&pd_rd_r=981f2986-2fe4-4291-a6c6-8daa32270b4e&pd_rd_i=B07QNN9MW3
CPU FAN ADAPTER CABLE: https://www.amazon.com/CRJ-5-Pin-Female-Adapter-Motherboards/dp/B0871P9X72/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=19CH0DE3GUFGG&keywords=dell+optiplex+9020+fan+adapter&qid=1694594053&sprefix=dell+optiplex+9020+c+fan+adapter%2Caps%2C683&sr=8-5
POWER SWITCH CABLE: https://www.amazon.com/Warmstor-3-Pack-Desktop-Button-Computer/dp/B072FMVZJZ/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=2KW0OE1E7QEFW&keywords=power+switch+cable+for+pc&qid=1707797019&sprefix=power+switch+cable+%2Caps%2C111&sr=8-3
28 PIN TO 8 PIN ADAPTER: https://www.moddiy.com/products/Dell-OptiPlex-9020-PSU-Main-Power-24-Pin-to-8-Pin-Adapter-Cable-30cm.html
MOLEX TO CASE FAN ADAPTER: https://www.amazon.com/Molex-Case-Sleeved-Adapter-Cable/dp/B08393S29W/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?crid=YC96W76081OT&keywords=molex+to+fan+adapter&qid=1707797145&sprefix=molex+to+fan+%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-4
You can absolutely repair with off the shelf parts, dell will sell you just about anything and will probably have it in stock for years, that's literally what they do. What they typically don't do is conform to consumer form factors/standards.
What I mean by “off the shelf” is the shelf at your local computer store, not Dell’s shelf.